The San Jose City Council is moving forward with its efforts to reduce the volume of plastic bags being used (and discarded) in the city. By now, everyone’s heard, that an estimated one million plastic bags end up in San Francisco Bay every year.
Perhaps bringing re-useable bags to the grocery store will soon become a common practice and habit that requires very little thinking. And, perhaps the new requirements will generate measurable results. But I do think that there are a couple of questions surrounding this issues that have received very little attention so far.
First, has anyone considered the public safety issue? Is it hygienic for hundreds of people to hand their re-used bags to store workers? Will the store workers be required to wear gloves or wash their hands every few minutes? Consider: The person ahead of you in line hands the grocery clerk three dusty bags. This person’s “dust” is now on the hands of the grocery clerk who will then handle your fruits and vegetables. Just think about how much “dust” (read, “germs”) will have accumulated on the workers hands after 30 people have passed through the checkout line!
Second, has anyone considered whether or not the new policy of encouraging/requiring people to bring in their own bags will cause shoplifting to increase? Consider: being allowed to bring in one’s own bags into a store provides a thief with a greater opportunity to sneak things out. A crook could come into a store with two canvass bags. One bag would be presented to the clerk at checkout, while the other bag would be used to carry things out of the store.
These days, everyone’s so quick to save the environment. Sure, let’s save the environment, but let’s also examine the true and full effects of the remedies proposed.
Wow what a dumb post. Dust?
I am now convinced to support the ban on plastic bags. How could anyone insist that shoplifting will increase and the Swine Flu will became a threat if we ban plastic bags.
The Lantern will cease supporting the opposition as they have lost all credbility with their new spokesperson, Pete of the Wacko Don.
I have not heard such drivel since someone thought that “paddy” was not a slur. Kansen and Jamie McLeod, I retract our opposition, you have my support.
Public safety??? Someone put a plastic bag over this guy.
“Someone put a plastic bag over this guy.”
You’re not threatening me, are you, Jimmy-Boy?
Grow up.
The proposed “fee” on paper bags is really a new city tax. From Mr. John Stufflebean’s memo:
“A portion of the fee could be retained by retailers, with the balance to be remitted to the City. A nexus study is being conducted to determine a fee amount that reflects the litter and waste management cost created by paper and plastic bags.”
We have heard from Mr. Liccardo that a ban on plastic bags will save money but now we read a new tax is required to pay for the costs of plastic bag waste management. The proposed initial fee is quite low. What if there is no significant reduction in single use paper bags? Will the city be forced to rachet up the tax until consumers relent? Later we read from the memo:
“Fee revenues would be used to offset administrative costs related to the ordinance.”
We know administrative costs in city hall rise much faster than inflation. Once this new cost structure is in place in city hall we can bet the fee will only rise.
“Fee revenues would be used to offset administrative costs related to the ordinance.” OH GREAT—another bureaucracy is born! Just what we need—more bullshit government programs, packed with folks who will get huge pensions just to count the fees on contraband bags.
Instead of a bag ban, why not try to enforce the existing laws against littering?
I don’t have a problem with stores like Costco that elect not to give free bags to customers, but I strongly object when the government butts in and passes a law against it.
I’ve heard arguments that we all “pay” hidden costs of free bags to justify this stupid policy. Does anybody think that if bags are actually banned that prices will go down as a result?
Californians are being over-regulated to death. By itself, each little fee, tax, special assessment etc won’t kill us, but add them up and we’re being nickel and dimed to death. “NO” on the bag ban.
Ditto, the city council members that voted for this should be thrown out of office. The city is going bankrupt and the city council votes to chase more business out of the city. How truly stupid.
The news report on it the other night said neighboring cities were worried about the opposite effect and will rush to follow SJ’s new measure. Just something to think about.
We seemed to manage to buy groceries for many years without plastic bags. When did these start showing up in stores? Maybe 20 years ago? Now it seems that some people see them as an absolute necessity.
I never really liked the flimsy plastic bags, and usually asked for paper when given the choice. Then I started using reusable bags and they’re great: they don’t rip open and hold quite a lot.
The only thing I don’t like about reusable bags is having to buy something that has a store’s advertising logo on it. They should be paying us, or at least giving out the bags free as a promotion!
Little green bags for my shopping
Little green bags all reusable
Little green bags, little green bags
Little green bags, none the same
There’s a big one for Zanotto’s
And a small one for convenience stores
And they’re all made to be used again
But they’re not made all the same
There’s a sturdy one for my hardware
And a special one for the bakery
And there’s one I use for ice cream
And another one just for meat
For my produce there’s mesh one
And a small one for the pharmacy
And the one I use at BevMo
Keeps my bottles safe and neat
We’re organic, Eco-friendly
And better than the rest of you
We recycle, buy carbon credits
And keep a house that’s ozone free
We teach our children, they’re now vegans
The oldest drives a hybrid car
And she always carries green bags
Little green bags, just like me
And my son saves little baggies
Little baggies with the strangest smell
Like a vegetable, only different
Little baggies for resale
Then the cops came to the front door
And rushed up into his room
Then they filled up special baggies
And took my boy straight off to jail
Kudos to the council for moving San Jose into a sustainable future, despite the threats from the Big Plastic.
An innovative industry would WOW! us with the bag of the future and dazzle us with it technical expertise. Instead, we have these dinosaurs retarding environmental progress with lawsuits, a can’t do attitude and a total lack of imagination about improving what is essential a bad product design.
There would be no problems if the single use bag naturally turned into healthy fish food or compost months after use. Instead these HDPE bags lasts for 1,000 years, leach poisons into the environment, and kills animals when it gets eaten as “food”. If the Europeans can make bags out of corn starch, why can’t we?
Fire the lawyers and lobbyist. Use that money to hire scientist and engineers.
Lastly, any environmental impact study should also include several voyages to the East Pacific Garbage Patch. Anything else is just going over old ground and losing sight of the big picture.
Regarding the Rowen/Campbell kerfuffle;
I can’t believe I’m saying this but…gulp…ok here goes…
I gotta go with Rowen on this one.
There. I said it.
Pete. This germ thing. It’s gotta stop. Last week with the coughing into the elbow. Now with the wearing of the gloves and the washing of the hands.
Who ARE you? Howard Hughes?
NO, he’s Michael Jackson
The irony of this is that 25 years ago, when grocery stores started using plastic rather than paper bags, it was because of the pressure put on grocery stores by “environmental” groups. They demanded this switch so trees would not be used to make paper bags. Didn’t these “environmental” groups realize 25 years ago the problems that would be created by plastic bags? It is not a secret that they take a long time to break down or get blown all over the place. It is funny that the city council thinks they are holier than thou now putting a ban on these same plastic bags. Kinda reminds me of how green it was going to be to put MTBE in gasoline only to find out it is now poisoning the water supply.
Making policy decisions based on short term “science” is never a good idea.
Short term science? At what point is science long-term and good science? Who makes the judgement about when science graduates from being short-term to being ready to base policy on? The problem with these arguments is that the only scientific proof that seems good enough is only available once it is too late. Not sure that our actions are making a species extinct? Let’s wait until the species is extinct and then act. Oh wait… There’s still a slight chance the climate change is not damaging our planet irreversibly? Let’s wait until we are sure. Hm…
OK, so somebody please enlighten me on this plastic bag dichotomy.
The plastic bag folks argue that recycling is the propr solution. Yet, I have heard more than once that if you put these plastic bags in your SJ recycling bin they will clog up the machinery @ the recycling plant. Huh?
Are plastic bags recyclable or not? Do they have to be recycled separately from all other recyclables? If so, why?
I found the answer to my questions.
Yesterday I spoke with two of the owners of one of SJ’s major recycling collectors. They informed me that the plastic bags commonly used by grocery stores cannot be effectively separated from paper at the recycling center, and that they do indeed clog up the machinery. The bags must be seaparted manually, which drives up costs.
However, if those same bags are bundled together, and not in combinatioin with anything else, they can be dealt with more effectively.
So, we are NOT supposed to put those bags in our curbside recycling bins with other stuff. They should be deposited in the containers that many stores now have near their entrances.
Why this is not pointed out in the annual recycling fact sheet that comes with our garbage bill is a mystery to me.
Berryessa Res: “Councilman Campbell?”
Only in his dreams, Berry. Only in his dreams…
finfan: Funny stuff. Glad to see that you’re in touch with your inner Pete Seger.
Steve: I did a little Googling and it appears that plastic grocery bags started to become commonplace in 1982 but not as a result of environmentalist pressure. The Kroger and Safeway chains who first brought them to widespread use because plastic bags are cheaper than paper. At that time there was no huge environmental debate over the issue. Now that the use of plastic bags is widespread, and we’ve had 27 years to judge the results, there is a movement to ban them.
I guess that’s why if you don’t give the bagger a preference for paper, you will usually get plastic. It saves the store money.
I worked for a major grocery store at the time of this switch and yes, you are correct, that plastic itself was cheaper than paper. There was also a push by environmental groups to make this switch to save trees, because at that time things were not recycled the way things are now.
Plastic bags do not save grocery stores money as far as labor goes. It takes much longer for a grocery clerk or bagger to use plastic bags than paper. I know, I did it for many years. I still like to bag my own groceries when I go shopping and when I use paper bags I can bag them at least 50% faster than flimsy plastic bags. At $20 an hour plus benefits for a grocery clerk, the savings for a store may not be all that great by using plastic bags, if the store has to hire extra help to compensate for a slower bagging method.
I would like to know if a study has ever been done by the grocery industry on what would be the effect of getting rid of all plastic or paper bags and forcing everyone to bring in their own cloth bags. Would customers be bagging all their own groceries and would this slow the check-out process to a grind? Would a customer hand their bags to the clerk to have the clerk fill their bags? I could see that taking lots of time as there would be bags of every size and shape for the clerk to sort through. Much of what expedites the check-out process is the bags are currently a uniform size and a checker knows what will fit in each bag. I would be curious if the grocery stores anticipate labor costs increasing if the efficiency of bagging decreases, and are we willing to pay the extra labor costs that will be passed on? If this does increase grocery costs then it is really just another hidden tax increase.
Steve- Good points and interesting questions.
I don’t think the savings issue is tied to labor so much as the cost of the bags themselves. From what I’ve read, and what the store owners are saying, plastic bags are cheaper to purchase in bulk than paper.
I have been using my own “reusable” for about a year now (when I remember to bring it into the store…Doh!) and find it’s no big deal. I usually bring 1 or 2 reusables, and put them in my basket/cart where the clerk will see them. They automatically grab and fill them. There doesn’t seem to be any confusion or lost productivity if the bags are not of uniform size. I can’t say that I’ve ever experienced a delay.
I share your concerns about line delays if grocery stores adopted a bag-it-yourself strategy. Home Depots “self check-out” lines are usually slower than the ones with clerks. But I have not heard that customers bagging their own groceries is contemplated by the industry, and certainly not by the proposed legislation.
One big advantage is the reusables are slightly larger, much sturdier, and it’s easier to carry stuff. I use the recycled plastic type of bag, not canvass which seems flimsier. I’d rather have one full bag than several partly-full bags to lug around. Plus at some stores (Lunardis) I get a nickel savings for each bag I use or I get entered into a weekly drawing for a gift certificate (Trader Joes). That’s a nice little perk.
Agree with the post, but more importantly: this doesn’t save the environment. Not even close. Not even helpful. Not even a little bit.
This is about as helpful as putting a ‘support the troops’ ribbon on your car in order to do your part to defeat terrorism (whoever that is).
Additioanl Points:
Why are restaurants and non-profits exempt from the requirements? And, where will the money go, if/when a nominal charge will be applied? If the city gets the money, then the plastic bag restrictions will be yet another vehicle to raise revenues (a tax) wrapped in the guise of saving mother nature. If plastic bags are harmful, restrict their usage across the board!
Because when you go shopping at the store, you can plan ahead and bring your own bags. Or bags are available there for purchase. When you go out to eat, you don’t always know if you will have leftovers to take home after. The number of bags used for restaurant carry-out is far smaller than the number from retail. The logistics of implementing a ban that includes restaurants makes it too complicated. Better to attack a managable and significant portion of the problem than try to solve the entire problem at once.
The hygenic aspect of this decision is something that immediately came to my mind. Kudos to Councilman Campbell for bringing the subject up. Not having attended the council hearing: is there any science on the subject? I work in a job with continual visits of homes in this city and to say that there are wildly different practices of cleanliness among the residents is a gross understatement.
We already allow shopping carts in stores. Those things are filthy. You know why? Because people in general are not that clean. The problem is not the bags.