When Allied forces liberated the concentration camps in Nazi Germany as they marched toward Berlin, local civilian residents were taken to the camps and forced to face the terrible truth that had been in their midst. In the years since, the debate has raged over the level of culpability shared by the German people in accepting the horrors of these camps throughout the war and saying or doing nothing to stop the heinous crimes against humanity being perpetrated in their name right in their backyards.
I have contemplated this issue in recent years in relation to the justification and reported use of torture by the Bush administration in prosecuting its “war on terrorism.” However, the situation is now brought closer to home with the revelation in the October 30 edition of The New Yorker that a local company is apparently deeply involved with the CIA’s “rendition” of prisoners to countries where they are ill-treated in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions and international law—the “torture flights.”
According to the article and subsequent reporting by CBS 5 News, Jeppesen DataPlan, a subsidiary of Boeing located at 225 W. Santa Clara St., Suite 1600, provides flight planning and logistics for the CIA flights. A former employee, who quit over the issue, has confirmed that the company is in cahoots with the CIA. He states that Jeppesen International Trip Planning managing director Bob Overby openly admitted as much in meetings and that two employees in San Jose have been assigned the task of managing the torture flights. Overby is quoted as saying, “We do all of the extraordinary rendition flights—you know, the torture flights. … It certainly pays well. They [the CIA] spare no expense.” Boeing, Jeppesen and the CIA have refused to comment on the story.
A lawsuit filed by a former CIA prisoner, Khaled el Masri, a German car salesman who claims he was arrested as a result of mistaken identity, stripped, drugged and chained to the floor of the plane and taken to Kabul where he was tortured for four months before the mistake was discovered and he was released, will probably name the Jeppesen company as a co-defendant, and there are other suits in the pipeline. But what about the apparent knowing collusion of the company with the government in violating the U.S. Constitution, the Geneva Conventions and international human rights laws? Shouldn’t we demand the ending of the entire process of torture and further demand accountability from those responsible for these shameful actions?
And what about having these evil deeds taking place in our midst? I don’t like it one bit that a company located in San Jose, indeed, in the very building next door to the San Pedro Square home of San Jose Inside, may be involved in the unspeakable for a paycheck. And the local reporting on this matter, with the exception of Channel 5 TV news and a column by L.A. Chung in the Mercury News, has been nonexistent as far as I can find. Why has there been no public outcry outside of a protest staged by South Bay Mobilization on November 17? Why aren’t the shareholders of Boeing spitting mad? Is there anything we can do as a community to stop this from taking place in our city? Except for the scale, aren’t we now in a similar moral and ethical position to the German civilians in World War II? Are we with the torturers or against them?
“…aren’t we now in a similar moral and ethical position to the German civilians in World War II?”.
Here’s a public service announcement to all:
blue koolaid + tryptophan = absolute lunacy.
Viva Fidel!
Thanks, Jack. This is an important issue that needs broader coverage. Given the tacit approval by posters 1 & 2, clearly more information needs to get out to the public. It is hard to believe that very many folks in San Jose would condone this kind of business being done within our city.
The apologists can concoct all the hypotheticals that they want, but in my world torture conducted by our country is wrong. If we are the “alleged” moral and military superior in the world, what kind of message does it send if we stoop to the levels of the dictators (some of whom we have of course supported.)
Light needs to be shed on this operation. Like cockroaches, the perpetrators will scurry for cover when exposed.
Answers to the five questions at the end of the column.
1) Why has there been no public outcry?
The pacifists haven’t heard about it, and many people would support it.
2) Why aren’t the shareholders of Boeing mad?
Same as #1, plus the stock price.
3) Is there anything we can do to stop this from taking place in our city?
I hope not.
4) Aren’t we now in a similar position to the German civilians in WWII?
No.
5) Are we with the torturers or against them?
With them.
NAPPER’S Question:
I would too.
I would like to nominate JVZ’s most recent “opinion” piece for the Silliest Use of Scare Quotes when referring to “perspectives” that differ from his own.
Jack,
The ‘60s really are over. Reliving your childhood paranoia is only fun for you and your geriatric hippy buddies who are having LSD flashbacks. To associate Gitmo with Auschwitz is the ultimate in absurd. Get psychiatric help.
Now, can we get on with reality based topics rather than the topics you come up with?
Speaking as someone who was in lower Manhattan on 9/11 and who remembers that Bill Clinton laid the groundwork for 9/11 by ignoring the first WTC bombing, the African Embassy attacks, the bombing of the USS Cole et.al., I think that Joe Average in post #4 has it exactly right. We’re at war but nobody on the left wants to fight back. When Iran gives nukes to the terrorists and a mushroom cloud rises over New York, the left-wing lunatics will share the blame.
I would hope that #s1, 2, & 4 represent only a small portion of the SJI community and beyond. Their attitude seems to indicate they believe the ends justify the means. Their seemingly callous attitude towards human torture at the hands of the U.S. is frightening and disturbing. As long we continue to this inhumanity towards each other, peace will be an elusive brass ring on the world carousel.
There are other ways to bring peace to the world without our lowering ourselves to those we like to call our “enemy.” We should exhaust all of those possibilities before we even begin a discussion of torture. As we enter into this holiday season, it is sad that there are those of us who apparently see no problem with the U.S. conducting torture or with those within our city who are making a living off of it.
I guess goodwill to all and peace on earth is still a fantasy.
6 – Is there anything that the Right doesn’t blame Clinton for? I suppose it was Clinton who buddied up to Saddam and provided him weapons?
We’re fighting but we’re not at war. Who is the enemy? An elusive network of terrorists that we can’t find? Are we just going to decimate country after country in the name of democracy? And then what will we have to show for it? We are less safe now than we were prior to 9/11. The Iraq war has been greatest terrorist recruiting tool of this generation.
Insult the left all you want. I hope when your kids have to go fight our “enemy” you still believe we are the moral crusaders and the leaders of “right makes might.” I hate seeing kids dying for a deceptive President who went to war on lies. It’s very hard to look at these kids as heroes when they are really sacrificial lambs.
Mayor Tom – How does this relate to improving San Jose? Yes we read Jack’s many rants, weak Blog justifications and today’s allegations that ” these evil deeds taking place in our midst? ”
Yes, crimes against humanity, religious and political intolerance are important isues that happens every day in other countries BUT THEY SHOULD BE discussed on OTHER BLOG SITES.
When did international politics become mission of San Jose Inside?
Do you endorse Jack’s new editorial policy of frequent off mission political Blogs discussing national and international politics?
Many of us have frequently objected to his using San Jose Inside to push his far left socialist personal political agenda
Mission of San Jose Inside is ” to encourage political debate, discussion and change in our city, started by people who value San Jose and are interested in her future and in this valley’s place in the state and nation. ”
Thank you, #10. Earlier I began a response to today’s rant and thought why bother. A few weeks ago, I thought it was decided to keep the discussion local. The only way that today’s exerpt remotely qualifies is the address. I’m glad that I’m not alone in my objections to coverage that is really on a national/international level.
G. Whiz (#9),
If you find it hard to look at our military dead as heroes, please try harder. Heroism, and every other form of military sacrifice, must be measured by the honor that drives the warrior, not the policy that drives the war. From the moment of enlistment the service member puts himself in the service of his nation, under the direction of leaders the people have put into office, sustaining himself through hardship and danger by his love of country and a necessary belief in the righteousness of his duty. The soldier can no more afford to be slowed by wondering about the wisdom of his orders than can a firefighter pause to question the character of the citizen he rescues from the fire. For them both, the mission is about duty, not decision-making, and their sacrifices deserve our respect and recognition.
When a business operating in San Jose is involved in assisting with torture, it becomes local. Doesn’t it bother anyone that a local profit-making business has blood on its hands? Are we so blasé that nothing bothers us anymore?
While I agree that for the most part SJI best serves the community by focusing on directly local issues, kids dying in Iraq (some are local) and billions of our dollars being spent there (which impacts local governments and therefore all of us) also makes this at minimum an indirect local issue.
Perhaps we need a new blog that some of you can start that is pro-torture.
I was a bit hasty and a bit harsh with my earlier response.
Now that I think about it more, *what if* we were to close Guantanamo and house the Ramzi bin al-Shibh types in the BayArea?
Treasure Island perhaps?
We could then show Khalid Sheik Mohammed first hand how compassionate we are by understanding and learning how we can change so they won’t hate us so much.
Only by housing the Guantanamo types in the BayArea, equipping each with an ACLU lawyer, and including them in our many celebrations can we ever hope to rise above comparisons to Nazi-era Germany.
Diversity celebrations like:
– “The San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual And Transgender Parade”
– “Folsom Street Fair”
– “Castro Street Fair”
– “How Berekely Can You Be?”
Though these actions are just a start, maybe, just maybe, goodwill and peace on earth might not be a fantasy after all.
Viva Fidel!
Jack and 5-6 unhappy others
You miss or ignore – San Jose Inside is for San Jose issues Stop wasting our time
Jack’s many Off Topic blogs delays discussing many local San Jose issues
Jack and 5-6 unhappy others can start a Blog and rant, protest and waste time on national or international issues where you have little input or control while we discuss San Jose
Find new San Jose Inside Editorial Director to focus on many needed local San Jose issues
#12 finfan
For the soldier… the firefighter… the mission is about duty, not decision-making…
And yet those who sent our young heros into this mess were the same ones that used privilage and pull to stay out of Viet Nam.
For those who risk their capital there are riches.
For those who risk their careers there are promotions.
For those who risk their lives there are ribbons.
Keep ignoring the fact that this torture-aiding business is located in SAN JOSE. How much more local can you get?
For those of you apologists who do not believe that a segment of Islam is out to get us, I suggest you view http://www.youtube.com/v/HlaVpqUXFO. This is a disturbing video, and that is putting it mildly. If you are in doubt that we are engaged in a war against a segment of Islam that hates us as infidels, then watch this twice! And it should ease your mind about negotiating!
Is this the view of all of Islam? I doubt it. But to deny that a segment of Islamist extremists does not want to drive us to our deaths is polyanna-ish.
Does that mean that we abandon our values? No, I don’t think so. But does that mean we play patty-cake, while they are content to blow up children just because they are of a different sect of Islam and believe that we won’t get worse? NOT!!
Hopefully # 8 said: “I guess goodwill to all and peace on earth is still a fantasy.” Yes, Hopefully, it is. Get REAL. Would that it were not so, but one must accept reality, like the reality of gravity, and the reality of the fact that there are lotsa folks out there that want to get “us”.
Does that mean that once we capture folks that they should not get access to the courts? No, I don’t think so. Every internee @ Gitmo should have his/her day in court, and not have to wait years to get it. There are plenty of lawyers with Hopefully’s view that will represent them free of charge. That is as it should be.
But should we not question these killers forcefully? Nope. They rely on our adherence to candy-ass methods that they laugh at.
There is a small segment of Islam that is at war with us. War ain’t pretty. The real answer is that there should be no war. But once war is engaged in, few limits apply to enemy combatants. Otherwise, we lose.
Remember the American Revolutionary War? If we had adhered to the accepted British tactics of marching down an open road with fife and drum, all in neat rows, we would have lost.
Instead, we adapted tactics to the time and place—hid out in the forests and beat the crap outta them, eventually. Same holds true now. If they wish to engage in terrorist bombings, etc., we cannot treat them like mere recalcitrant schoold children. When we catch one, we need to do everything possible to find out what he knows. They’d do the same with our boys, and I understand both sides of that equation.
Jack Van Zandt, G. Whiz and other terrorist sympathizers need to look at the video johnmichael o’connor linked to and ponder the serious question of how to deal with unreasonable people who want to kill you. The Democrats made an issue about the Iraq war, now that they won Congress they’ll need to come up with some constructive ideas on how to meet the growing Islamic threat if they want to keep power. Oh, and they should hope that the next terrorist attack does not come on their watch.
As San Jose residents we have the right to refuse to do business with local companies who take part in harmful and immoral activities. Bringing attention to such companies, and to the nature of their wrong doing, is an important part of this process and an important function of local news activities. The fact that the tacit approval of the “torture flights” was likened, in the article, to other events which took place in other parts of the globe does not negate this basic fact.
If some readers agree with the practice of abducting private citizens and subjecting them to torture—without even the checks and balances provided by due process of law—then they have the right to support and do business with the Jeppesen company. Just as those who are morally outraged can elect not to do so. That’s one of the perks of living in a free and democratic society like the United States of America.
Perhaps a more appropriate criticism of the blog entry is not that it fails to be “local” enough, but rather that if tries to persuade the reader with such a heavy handed comparison—which is both manipulative and disrespectful.
Returning to the discussion of the Jeppeson company and the issue of the morality of the “torture” flights, I think we must ask ourselves one question: “What are the consequences of such endeavors?
One commentator claims they are justified because they might deflect future acts of terrorism. Yet I wonder if he would feel the same if he, like Masri, were mistakenly abducted and tortured. Would he thank his torturers for making the world a “safer” place? Or would he switch his support to concepts like due process of law, innocent until proven guilty, and humane limits of interrogation?
Meanwhile, the CIA seems to have accomplished little in the war on terror through adopting such brutal and extreme means. Therefore, given such unsatisfactory “ends”, how can we justify a “means” that threatens the very foundation of our society—the United States Constitution?
That the Jeppeson company could glibly go along with these ill-considered “torture” flights for the sake of lining their pockets is therefore immoral, unwise, and un-American. I for one would like them to get out of town. And I fully intend to practice my right to withhold my business and to inform others who may wish to do the same.
19 – And just how do we “win” this debacle in Iraq? And how will know?
Mr. Van Zandt.
Unless you were on the airplane and witnessed the event, don’t you think that you should use the term “alleged” ?
Also would you please give a yes or no answer to the following question: Would you torture a person if it would have prevented the attack that America suffered on 9/11 ?
I CERTAINLY WOULD
#10. You quoted it yourself:
“…people who value San Jose and are interested in her future and in this valley’s place in the state and nation. “
A local company’s involvement in what some may see as misguided national policy reasonably falls into this category.
Your objection is not that Mr. VanZandt raised a topic that was not strictly local. Your objection is the political bent of his writing. Yet you, and others here, do not challenge him on the issues that he raised.
Attempting to pre-empt the debate with a lame misinterpretation of policy is silly.
#20 – Your ignorance and lack of patriotism is showing. Calling those who disagree with you “terrorist sympathizers” sounds like something the “enemy” would do as part of a disinformation campaign.
You should read what #21 has written. They have made a strong argument for not supporting a local company involved in torture-for-profit. And, they made the arguement without stooping to your level of name calling and the classic “question their loyalty to their country.” You should be ashamed and embarrassed but you probably aren’t. Too bad.
Well Jack,
You spouted a nonlocal (like it or not) political bunch of BS that is best discussed elsewhere.
Seems the business in question exibits pure capitalism so if you or others above don’t like it – go Berkley on them but do it somewhere else. If you were only looking for varied responses you achieved that end.
Otherwise why not stick to a topic that is LOCAL and stay away from Global themes.
Could it be YOU are out of LOCAL blog ideas.
You can always post on RR’s site. He gets Paid for his words.
Actually, my delicate sensibilities and hand wringing and concern are for the well being our country. It is your “everything is the fault of liberals” claptrap that is disgusting.
31, Novice… to your point:
“The mainstream news media, the liberal political leadership, and the liberal rank and file are so vain and self absorbed that they can’t get past their petty hatred of Bush to see the big picture. “
It’s not about the end-game. It’s about process and competence.
Life saving cardio vascular surgery is sometimes a worth while and good thing.
A dysfuntional team of “experts” who have never spent time over the operating table lead by a med school cheerleader is a recipe for disaster.
#19. Ah yes, the highly credible YouTube defense of kidnap and torture.
Give me a break!
It has nothing to do with “everything is the fault of liberals” and everything to do with the fact that most of the US population refuses to understand that we’re at war with fanatical killers who hate our way of life and want to replace it with one based on an 8th century religious view of the world. And if you don’t go along, they will kill you.
Why is it that leftists hate George Bush’s religion but embrace that of the terrorists?
David D. (#12),
You are absolutely correct about the armchair commandos of the current administration having avoided Vietnam, the war of their youth. That “privilege and pull” were the means used is not particularly significant as they belonged to a generation of draft-eligible men that ducked the call using any means available. No one went to Canada, or feigned homosexuality, or went on a pre-induction diet of egg whites if they had privilege and pull at their disposal. Young American men were, by the millions, scheming to avoid the draft, while just as many others, even some with privilege and pull, made no attempt at all to skirt what they considered their patriotic duty.
Still, failure to serve is not, on its own, enough to condemn Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, et al for their willingness to send our troops into battle. Were the invasion of Iraq necessary or justifiable (by something other than their own naive, Napoleonic delusions) their draft-dodging history wouldn’t be so significant. But the war was not justifiable, not honestly brokered, not in the best interests of America, and that’s what makes the Pattonesque bluster of the paper-cut brigade so despicable. Were they honorable men their insatiable appetite for war, war, war would’ve been detectable sometime before they became too old to join in the fighting.
You are also right that money and careers are there to be made in war, but I would argue your last point, lest anyone think that the only reward for those who do the fighting comes in the form of a ribbon. Serving this country, and embracing risk to life and limb, has proved for millions of men to be the most rewarding experience of their lives. To know a sense of duty, find courage, accept sacrifice, all in the name of the greater good, is a seminal experience of manhood, one that transcends the dark realities of policy and politics.
Sadly, the service of these young men and women is often disrespected and abused by the very leaders who pretend to honor them. We can’t change that, but we can remember to honor those who offer their very lives in our service.
It always goes back to the “Summer of Love” for bay area types – the golden age for America’s most worthless generation.
“And, you don’t have to be a liberal to know we have a failed policy in Iraq and it is not making our country any safer.”
Bush tries to jumpstart 2 democracies in the midst of a den of snakes with the belief that free people and democratic Arab states would deprive Islamic extremists of oxygen.
(Why would you blow yourself up if you had opportunities and a chance for a good life?)
You’d think this would warm the hearts of liberals everywhere. But you’d be wrong.
The mainstream news media, the liberal political leadership, and the liberal rank and file are so vain and self absorbed that they can’t get past their petty hatred of Bush to see the big picture.
That we (the west) are in the midst of round 1 of Islam versus the non-Islamic world.
Your delicate sensibilities and hand wringing and concern about the well being of terrorists is disgusting.
Put that in your “Summer of Love” pipe and smoke it.
Viva Fidel!
It seems to me that Jack has established a significant local nexus to this international story so that it is a legitimate topic for discussion here.
However, to use the Holocaust as some sort of comparison is way out of line. Sorry, Jack, but there is a HUGE difference between the systematic slaughter of 6 million folks because of their religion alone and the discreet selection of a couple of hundred people who want to blow us up because of our religion for some hardball questioning.
The case of Mr. Masri is a very unfortunate error, but until we achieve perfection, errors are going to be made. Mr. Masri should be adequately compensated for our error.
But to compare what we are doing to the Holocaust trivializes the Holocaust, Jack.
I’m guessing the bloggers supporting the alleged methods to seek out and torture enemies of the state by the CIA are blond, fair skined, blue eyed, or all three. I say this because it is always easier to support an act of severe cosequences when you know you will, more than likely, never be a target.
I say this NOT because I sympathize with terrorist; I say this because I was once victim of profiling in a neighborhood crime.
It would be interesting to know what the checks and balances are before our secret service can take an idevidual away for questioning and torture.
Having said that, as # 33 put it; can we move on to “more important San Jose issues?”
I hope that those who speak in favor of Bush or this War don’t think that they speak for all conservatives. Here are a few of my thoughts:
1-Bush was asleep at the wheel (as was Clinton before him) when 9-11 hit.
2-We never should have considered any other objectives until we finished the job in Irac. Where is Osama?
3-We rushed into Irac unprepared without a well thoughtout plan. Too few troops, no armor, no exit strategy.
4-The present administration pushed out the one person that could have led us through this mess, Powell.
5-We will not win this war by torturing prisoners. It is only a desperate reaction to a failed plan of war.
6-This is not a Republican War nor a Democrat War. Bush never would have been elected unless citizens from both parties elected and reelected him. Right or wrong the name of America is on this War and unless we all work together, we will never get out of this mess.
7-The minute a San Josean’s combat boot set foot on Middle-Eastern soil it beame a San Jose issue.
Our Lame Duck Mayor and City Council on Tues Dec 5 will vote to approving 5000 hillside and farmland homes in Evergreen creating Highway 101 traffic grid lock and more environmental pollution as Gonzo and Lame Ducks do another ” back room political contributor payback deal ”
Let’s see what “ justifications “ our Lane Ducks quack while giving paybacks to Evergreen developers for past or future political campaign contributions.
Gonzo and Lame Duck City Council has caused most current and future budget crises by foolish spending and approving developments like Evergreen where San Jose not developers pay for most required development costs. We will see more city service cuts and closed community centers in 2007
Bush would never have been re-elected if it were not for 9/11. The 9/11 attack was the best thing that ever happened to him in his first term. Without the attack he had nothing to run on—he was cruising to a one-term presidency. Now, due to his failed Iraq policy, it may turn out to be the worst thing that happened to him in his 2nd term. What goes around comes around.
Jack,
Who do you think invests over a $1B into this valley? Downtown would be even more of a cowtown without this investment.
National security and war in general is an ugly business and sometimes mistakes are made. But let’s stick to the facts, unless we want discuss the history of J-town, immigration and certain local political families.
Evergreen and suburban sprawl looks like a much more important San Jose issue.
#38: “hardball questioning?” “unfortunate error?”
That is an interesting way to describe kidnap and torture.
My fear is that people who are “enemies” of the administration will be the ones hauled off and flown somewhere. Bush has asked for so much power to be handed to him (and almost got it from a republician congress) that I think he would use this tactic and wiretapping on people who oppose the war and anything else they disagree w/him on. I have a family member that keeps writing Bush and various senators, congressman, etc. that I really am afraid they will come take her away.
If only it weren’t some whacked out dry-drunk religious nutball running the country, I wouldn’t be totally opposed to some of these tactics.
Employee #43: So your motto must be—just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean other people aren’t out to get me.
#38: paste this into your browser and watch:
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/12min.htm
Jack is the editor of this blog and you need to show some respect! You don’t like what he writes….GET OFF! He thinks this is a local issue and in my opinion it is. Why? Because this company is right here and he is trying to make you aware of what is going on. I don’t know how I feel about this issue but I still don’t want to shut people down because they may not agree with me. How in the world do you ever learn anything if you just want to shut people up? I don’t just want my opinion repeated over and over to me but apparently there are people that do. Wake up you dunderheads, and listen once in a while!!
“Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Friday called U.S. President George W. Bush’s defeat in congressional elections a victory for Iran.”
“Al-Muhajir (leader of al-Qaida in Iraq) praised the American people for handing victory to the Democrats, saying: “They voted for something reasonable in the last elections. The vote shows the Iraqi and American people are of one mind about withdrawing U.S. troops. … We hope the Democrats don’t forget their campaign promises; If they don’t, we will deal with them in a brotherly way once the last American soldier pulls out from Iraq.”
G. Whiz,
Are you a terrorist sympathizer? No.
As a “useful idiot”, are you unwittingly aiding and abetting terrorists and state sponsors of terrorism via your unbelievable vanity? Yes.
Aren’t you the slightest bit uncomfortable that your world views align with those who would cut your throat in a second if given the chance?
Liberalism is a mental disorder? You bet!
Viva Fidel!
By the way, off topic (and I know some of you bloggies will howl) the thing I love most about San Jose is the weather. The lack of humidity and the sunshine should go in the next marketing slogan. People that swelter and suffer when it is hot would love to come to mild tempratures and no humidity for their vacations.
I’ve heard the same nonsense that Novice provides for us since the days of Viet Nam. You certainly prevailed then, calling those opposed to the war “useful idiots” and firing accusations of “aiding and abetting.”
For some reason those on the extreme right can do no better than fling insults at those they disagree with. And, you don’t have to be a liberal to know we have a failed policy in Iraq and it is not making our country any safer. You can stay the course—I will be looking for ways to actually accomplish something that will make our country safe.
Now, it’s your turn to spew out your silly insults
#44. Wow! Your video is very similar to another movie about a hate-spewing radical sect that threatens freedom. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE
43 Employee
“… some whacked out dry-drunk religious nutball running the country, ” and his mother still loves him, that I can understand; but one third to one half of the country? Go figure.
My reference to the Nazi concentration camps has been misunderstood and misrepresented by some. I am obviously not equating the Holocaust to alleged CIA torture or anything else in history and have stated as such in my last paragraph where I use the words “Except for the scale…”. I apologize if that wasn’t clear enough. The subsequent question I pose has been on my mind and I wanted to find out what others thought. Some think it ridiculous and over the top, and others think it apt. That’s par for the course and part of what this site is about. I don’t know what the answer is or even if there is one. I do know, however, that this is an important matter, even though it is extremely distasteful.
This is not about me personally or my opinion or the Holocaust, but the issue itself—what is taking place right now, right here. That’s what we should be discussing.
43,47,48
This just in… the spread of Islam into Europe in the middle ages was not halted by multicultural secularists.
Like it or not, hard core Christians are the bedrock that will save this country’s bacon from Islam.
Look no further than our European ‘friends’ today to see how states where secularism and atheism are the official religions are holding up against Islamic pressure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6190080.stm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061127/lf_nm/france_police_dc
Alan # 47: Yeah, pretty scary but on a different scale. The people in your movie will grow up to vote. The people in my movie bomb kids to smithereens.
Jack #51—The opening paragraph set the tone for a comparison, despite the three word disclaimer hidden farther down. It was exceeedingly inappropriate and insulting.
Our war in Iraq is the stupidest thing since our war in Viet Nam. However, radical Islam is on the move. Read “The Looming Tower”, which traces radical Islam back about a hundred years, but it really got going in the 1930’s in Egypt as a response to a corrupt series of regimes who lost the soul of Islam, who are being attacked by people who apparently never had it.
This column goes way too far. There are situations which warrant comparison to Nazi Germany.
Darfur comes to mind, or Rwanda and parts of the Yuguslav wars. Whole cities were deliberately exterminated based on race and religion.
Nothing of the sort happened here.
Words have power. Compating Bush ( or Pelosi ) to Nazis does a great disservice to those who suffer from modern genocides.
JD – I didn’t realize that Roseville was so close to Naiveville. It must be great to live in your world where everything is wonderful. The rest of us live in Realityville. Try it.
#43: “My fear is that people who are “enemies” of the administration will be the ones hauled off and flown somewhere.”
My question to ‘Employee’ and to JVZ and other like-minded folks: If you truly believe that the minions of Chimpy McHalliBushKKKo would swoop in, in the dark of the night, to ‘disappear’ anyone who has a contrary point of view, then why are you still here? How were you allowed to vote? The location of SJI has been known for a long time, and the political predilections of its editors are decidedly anti-GOP – why are they still allowed to publish? Why were they (and SV411 and mayorwatch and others) allowed to actively support non-GOP candidates?
Until you can show us one person that has been hauled off and flown somewhere (your words, not mine), and imprisoned for merely espousing a political position in opposition to Bush-43, spare us the Kossackian talking point phony paranoia.
JVZ – seriously, sir: Are you attempting to conflate the systematic slaughter of millions of people for their religious faith with the activities of a company that (allegedly) provides logistical assistance for extradition flights out of the country?
And placing those two incidences on the same scale?
Perhaps you need to take a walk down to the Federal building (Second Street side near San Carlos) and spend some time at the monument dedicated to the victims of the Japanese Internment, and then maybe think long and hard about the scale to which your hatred of Everything Bush has driven you kookoo.
#50 – Objection, your honor: Relevance…
#51
Shorter JVZ: “I’m sorry if you proles took my context out of context. I will attempt to make my context less contextual in the future.”
#52. Novice: Be careful. When we see the words “hard core” and “Christians” in the same sentence it’s usually followed by the word “scandal.”
#53. John: Let’s not evade the issue. The kids portrayed in the link in #47 are not being trained to merely grow up and vote. They are clearly being encouraged to become the next generation of Tim McVeighs and Eric Rudolphs who will also “bomb people to smithereens.”
Could you justify a government program to kidnap and torture this fringe group of American religious zealots or do you suppose there might be a better alternative to deal with this potential threat?
#57 – An absolute appropriate name for your comment. Well played, sir.
Did you actually go and see “Jesus Camp”? Or are you just basing your judgment of that movie on the trailer, featuring the commentary of the oh-so-objective Mike Papantonio of Air America?
And did you see, anywhere in that trailer, guns or grenades or rifles or bomb belts being given to children, or anything in relation to what goes on with Hamas or Hezboallah?
Or did you just see children being exposed to an absolutist point of view with which you disagree?
Once again, we go back to moral equivalence. JVZ began the thread with the ridiculous conflation of the civilian acquiescence to Nazi atrocities in 1940s Germany to the citizens of San Jose allegedly living in willful ignorance of a company that does logistical planning for CIA plane flights overseas.
Now we have pentecostal children said to be ‘clearly being encouraged’ to become Eric Rudolph or Tim McVeigh, presumably on the basis of the trailer of one movie. Regrettably, it looks like the instructions on bomb-making and countersurveillance techniques will have to wait until “Jesus Camp 2 – The Graduates”
FWIW, I would encourage Alan Smithee to bone up on his history. Timothy McVeigh’s motivations for the OKC bombing were strictly secular, and was meant as revenge for what he perceived as US Guvmintal atrocities perpetrated overseas (Serbia, Iraq) and domestically (Ruby Ridge, Waco). See this site for McVeigh’s own explanation: “http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/mcveigh/okcwhy.htm” Nowhere will you find in that document any mention of God or Jesus or Allah or the Great Pumpkin or any other deity.
Yeesh.
#58. JD. Nice try, but to deny the link between Tim McVeigh and the Branch Davidians suggests that it is thee, not I who needs to bone up on history.
Yes, I have seen Jesus Camp. Have you?