Permit me to enclose a letter written by a concerned resident to a local newspaper. While there may be some mis-statements, the letter quite nicely compares compensation between public and private sector employees.
“WILLOW GLEN RESIDENT”
May 22, 2009
“As a citizen of San Jose, I am very pleased with the public safety provided by the city’s fire and police personnel. That being said, attention needs to be directed to the chronic city budget deficit.
The projected city deficit for the 2009-2010 year is $75 million. Employee costs make up 70 percent of the budget. A recent listing in the Mercury News has shown actual payout to city employees for the last year.
Topped by retired deputy fire chief, James Carter, at $433,489, there were 66 employees who got 200,000 or better, and the list expanded to 2,662 who got $100,000 or better. There were many police and fire captains who got $250,000.
These positions are equivalent to second-line management in industry, but industry managers typically do not get overtime pay, pay for sick days not taken, and free medical benefits for life. The industry manager typically gets a 401K plan: that is a defined contribution not a defined benefit, not 90 percent of the final year’s pay for retirement with 3 percent yearly increases as some of the city’s police and firemen do.
If the public safety employees would take a 50 percent pay and benefit decrease, they would be getting more in line with similar industry employees. The city employee retirement benefit is based on the final year’s pay level times 3 percent for every year employed. There is no averaging out pay over several years, and by concentrating on just the final year, sick leave and overtime payments can be included. James Carter worked 36 years, which means his yearly retirement income could be close to $400,000 for the rest of his life.
A city official recently said that “the unions get it.” I do not know what this means. The unions certainly get paid a lot, but in the recently proposed budget, there were sacrifices to be made by the public, including higher fees and taxes and fewer library hours, but nowhere is there mention of any union give-backs.
There is mention that the unions are willing to delay wage increases. You wonder what the city was thinking when it agreed to such generous union contracts. Recent openings in the fire department got a reported 1,000 applicants.
Last year, Vallejo filed Chapter 9 bankruptcy because it could not afford its union contracts. It should never reach this point.
The object of city administration should be to provide public safety and services. It should not b to provide and protect good jobs and good pay. The city should be organized to serve the public. The public should not serve the city by maintaining good-paying city jobs at the expense of increased fees and reduced public services.”
Hello John Galt,
Thank you for your comment #10 on Rants & Raves of May 2, 2009 which explains why nobody in San Jose gives a damn, except for their own little neighborhood or the mighty Do$$ar.
Don’t know if Galt is your real name, but Wikipedia possibly describes you:
“John Galt is a fictional character in Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged. Although he is absent from much of the text, he is the subject of the novel’s oft repeated question, “Who is John Galt?”, and the quest to discover the answer.
As the plot unfolds, Galt is acknowledged to be a creator and inventor who embodies the power of the individual capitalist. He serves as an idealistic counterpoint to the social and economic structure depicted in the novel. The depiction portrays a society based on oppressive bureaucratic functionaries and a culture that embraces the “stifling mediocrity” and egalitarianism of socialistic idealism. In this popular mass ideology, he is a metaphorical Atlas of Greek mythology, holding up the world.
An engineer by trade, Galt’s actions include withdrawing his talents, “stopping the motor of the world,” and leading the “strikers” (in this case the captains of industry) against the “looters” (in this case the mob rule of the bureaucrats and their supporters). The storyline unfolds by exploring rumors and legends about the identity of Galt. Galt’s actual identity is learned only after a prolonged search by Dagny Taggart, the heroine of the story, with whom Galt has a romantic relationship. Galt is also referred to in the story as the Mystery Worker.”
Haven’t read “Atlas Shrugged” yet, but I’ll check it out from the library.
Sorry I can’t get a great “Youth Hostel” opened in San Jose. Dropped off a friend at SJC last night and then cruised a bit around town. I’m really impressed how San Jose has changed since I attended SJSU in the mid-Seventies. Much Downtown is new with beautiful wide streets and tall buildings, often lit up at night. The area around SJSU has visibly improved. Guadalupe Expressway wasn’t when I attended SJSU nor the parks along the creek.
In the old days San Jose was the area’s merchant center, the big Sears store, OSH, Downtown jewelers, first class hotels, the transportation hub. Now you can get this and more everywhere else except for the County Government Center, the regional airport, HP Pavilion and a few museums. Other places now also have symphonies, theaters, special events, junior colleges, shopping, restaurants.
San Jose has lost its allure as the Center of what is now Silicon Valley.
Seems there is little effort to attract tourists, except those attending conventions.
The empty San Jose Water Company building on Santa Clara Ave, between HP Pavilion and Downtown and close to Didiron would be a great hostel location but our non-profit is without the $$$.
Oh well, hope to have more luck in Santa Clara, Campbell, Mountain View, Sunnyvale (which has problems creating a viable downtown and might desire a hostel) or Palo Alto.
Surely some high-tech company canning up to 25% of workforce might offer a surplus building to take off its tax rolls (since no one is buying) and convert to hostel use. In return the company could market its products to the college-educated international crowd that prefers to stay at our hostels and hire the brightest. The hostel is a good place to temporarily house their overseas trainees and interns. A win-win for everyone.
The hostel’s future Google Earth Dome might rival SJ City Hall Dome. With combination of planetarium and Disneyland 360 screen showing Earth, Space, Ocean, this could be a tourist attraction and be lot more useful than City Hall’s.
Thanks again for accurately describing San Jose’s mindset.
It is ironic that most of the bitching about the salary of public safety employees seems to come from the highest income areas of San Jose which is Almaden Valley, Rose Garden and Willow Glen. I wonder when the last time Bob or Mr. Moly fought with a 250 pound parolee high on PCP intent on severely injuring or killing them? When was the last time they walked into a volatile domestic violence situation which is the most deadly of all police calls and our officers do on a regular basis? When was the last time they dealt with a horrific car accident or murder scene and the mutilated bodies and devastated family memebers? When was the last time they dealt with some sick pedophile intent on victimizing our children? When was the last time they walked into a business that was just robbed at gunpoint not knowing if the suspect was waiting to ambush them in the store? When was the last time they were shot at or somebody charged them with a knife? The residents of San Jose who are blessed with living in the most affluent areas are the ones least affected by violent crimes. Those in the other areas tend to know what our officers deal with. Funny that Mr. Boyden in Almaden Valley of all places wants our police officers to take a 50% paycut. That would put the average street officer at about $55,000 a year. There may be upper management salaries at the police or fire department which are too high. Deal with that. I really don’t want to put my families life in the hands of a security guard which is what you are going to get for $55,000 a year. Even in these times you get what you pay for. You want a professional police department that makes due with half the officers other cities of comparable size to San Jose have then you have to pay the officers we have a good salary. You want them to risk their lives for you and beat the crap out of their own bodies for 30 years on a daily basis then they need a good retirement so they are not hesitant about walking into unknown volatile situations and getting hurt. Maybe the fire department gets thousands of applicants but the police department gets far, far fewer and less that 10% of those pass the background check, academy and the field training program. The police department also contributes a large amount of their own gross salary into their own retirement fund and recently agreed to pay 5% of their gross salary into prefunding their medical retirement costs although there is little mention of this.
Ever wonder why mainstream newspapers are going down the tubes? The Sacramento Bee’s post-election editorial last week provides a good case study. It seems that the Bee’s editorial board published an editorial blasting the wisdom of the voters’ decision to vote down 1A-1E. The tone of the editorial was haughty and condescending. There was so much reader blowback that the Bee was forced to delete the offending editorial and replace it with a completely different version. Naturally, the Bee couldn’t own up to being a bunch of condescending liberals, so they came up with a lame excuse that the first editorial was only a “internal draft.” Right. Anybody beliving the Bee’s lame explanation contact me; I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
Given the dire State budget situation, get ready for the giant sucking sound that results from the State vacuuming up every last dollar of RDA funding remaining.
It would shock me if Sacramento didn’t shut down all RDAs statewide and redeploy the monies to their rightful beneficiaries – schools and basic infrastructure.
At the most recent Bruce Springsteen concert in the HP Pavilion, the sound was terrible. We had good seats, not too close but the sound was extremely loud to the point of being painful. Even with ear plugs, the sound was still loud enough to give me a headache. The sound was much better at the concert before in the Oakland Arena.
I attended the Fleetwood Mac Concert on the 21st. I was able to buy a single best available in the 116 section. I was close and expected to hear some great sounds as I had experienced at Shore Line several years ago from them.
I knew from the first song the notes did not sparkle for me.
My question today is , do the groups that perform bring their own speakers? Was it the section I was in?
I recall sitting in the nose bleed area and experiencing the same sound effects. Yet I have been there for some great music at times.
I was disapointed and decided to leave after 5 or 6 songs. It was fun getting excited about even getting a ticket at the very last minute. Henry’s was packed with concert goers, that was fun as well. I went home and listened to their music.
Mac Attack
#4, Frank, I suggest you look at the non-retirement turnover statistics for the city to determine what city employees think about their compensation packages. It might open your eyes.
#12-10 MHz Days,
Yes, I have read many stories like this. The odd thing I’ve noticed though is that many cities like ours are still funding other festivals and celebrations. I wonder why the birth and independence of our country, and honoring our Vets ranks last on the list of important, and affordable celebrations. It is right up there with no more saying Merry Christmas, just Happy Holidays. No more having Christmas decorations in areas that might offend some other religion, or no more hanging the American flag out because that might offend someone. Just sad and ridiculous.
Hum. May be I woke up in another country and just don’t know it yet.
Greg #14
You obviously didn’t pay much attention to my post in #4 because my entire comment was in response to #2.
Pat #15
Why don’t you go fight in the middle of the night on some dark street with no backup a 250 pound parolee who hates cops high on PCP who has spent the last 5 years in prison working out in prison and then get back to us. My comment in #4 was directed to our police officers only, who confront these thugs on a daily basis. They earn every cent they get and then some. Ask the families of the 4 dead police officers in Oakland.
Has anyone else noticed how the Murky News is now deleting reader’s comments that question the accuracy of Merc stories? Pretty chicken…
Example: For the past few days readers comments quickly disappear from the article that blasts cops for “refusing” to turn 911 tapes over to the Merc in a case that is still under investigation! Posts that point out the obvious fallacy of this are taken down.
The Merc can’t blame layoffs for this, just it’s own bad judgment.
I’m a fan of newspapers, but the Merc is an embarrassment. If Media News turned the Merc over to the students of SJSU’s Spartan Daily the result would be a better newspaper.
Frank, #17, I have ridden along with our officers on a Friday night. I appreciate what they do to keep our city safe. They do a very good job of backing each other up. I suspect that they don’t often end up approaching a “250 lb parolee who hates cops high on PCB who has spent the last 5 years in prison working out in prison” without support. They approach almost everyone with support.
I appreciate all that our people in blue do for us. But being a police officer in San Jose is way different than being one in Oakland. Compensation should reflect that.
Incompetence may be just as likely as censorship. The Mercury News web site is one of the slowest, most poorly designed sites I have ever used. In the past when an article was updated it was considered a new article and the previous comments were deleted.
No politician will admit it, but being a police officer is not a riskly profession.
It’s not even in the top ten. Nor is being a fireman.
The dangerous professions are all private sector. Logger. Fisherman. Farmer. Steel construction worker. Even delivery driver is more dangerous than policeman.
Pat Waite,
No offense intended but, would you put your life on the line everyday for that kind of salary and compensation?
I wouldn’t, especially given how ungrateful people are to the Police for providing such a vital service to the community, and given how out numbered Police Officers are by the thousands of criminals out there. Just wait until they release the thousands more non violent criminals from State prison due to the budget and over crowding. Your nice safe neighborhood won’t be so safe any more, if we don’t get more Police Officers out on the street.
Do you realize how many of these Officers lose their families because they are never home? Do you ever think about what they see and hear on a daily basis? Child molestation, rape, murders, children in gangs, drug use, child neglect, you name it they see and hear it.
Can you imagine the high blood pressure, heart trouble, and other physical problems they endure from a stressful job like this? I don’t think you get it Pat. Start with these and educate yourself. Then put a dollar amount on what you think they should get paid, and let us know what you come up with.
You remind me of men in the old days that think being a housewife and mother is an admiral job, but that the job isn’t worth getting paid much to do it.
Reader,
Media that deletes or refuses to print criticism by posters are cowards. They scream First Amendment Rights for themselves, but they don’t extend it to us.
The other day I called KGO radio because the Mayor was on. They were talking about the budget, the Police etc. I called in, was on hold for quit awhile, and the idiot who picked up the phone asked me what I wanted to talk about. I said victim’s rights, the Police, and a rally I was in the process of forming. He said, “No rallies, no victim’s rights, not today.” And promptly hung up on me. I thought he might not have understood me, so I called back, waited again; the same guy answers the phone again. I say, I want to talk about victim’s rights and crime in San Jose. He again says, “No I don’t want to talk about that today,” and hung up on me.
A few minutes later, I hear a caller asking the Mayor why there is a heavy Police force out during Cinco De Mayo, and why he lets the Police push people around? I guess that was more important than victim’s rights, and crime in San Jose.
Both print, TV, most blogs, and radio media have their own agenda, they don’t give a dam about what matters to us. Their sponsors control the news, big bucks always has!
Anon,
Not that your comments make any sense given the topic but you say, “It’s a much higher risk than police officer, and the pay is less.”
Why don’t you post the salaries of these professions? According to shows like the “Biggest Catch,” one man on a boat can earn upwards of 100K per outing.
Lots of folks go into professions that are dangerous, but I have yet to see an armed tree ambushing tree cutters, or gangs of angry fish armed with an AK47 killing anyone lately have you?
By the way, no one’s death goes unmourned by those who love them, not even a Librarian, or a dishwasher. Not dangerous professions I grant you, but done by human beings none-the-less.
#20, Frank, & #25, Kathleen, not sure why you think that I believe we should cut police pay. I remarked that SJ police should get paid less that Oakland police (and I suspect that’s true, judging from their web sites). I appreciate all that they do, just like appreciate what most service organizations do. I guess I don’t suffer from your blind obeisance to their courageous fulfillment of their sworn duties.
Frank, our officers are well compensated for the risks they take day in and day out. You can see for yourself at http://www.sjpd.org/joinsjpdblue/SalaryBenefits.html. Starting salary of over $70K for somebody with an associates degree is pretty significant.
Coporate HR types would go nuts if they achieved the low rate of non-retirement turnover that the city experiences. I think that’s a clear indicator that our city employees are being more than fairly compensated.
Kathleen, I suspect on a percentage basis, about as many police officers lose their families as most other professions. We have a very high divorce rate in Santa Clara County…I’m sure it’s not driven by police officers alone.
Pat,
No Police Officer is paid what they are worth. Getting an AA degree, going through vigorous training at the academy, and earning 70K for putting your life on the line is NOTHING. And studies do show that Police Officers have a higher rate of divorce than the average professional. Do you ever read anything outside of budgets, or big business?
Are you really trying to compare an office job to that of a Police Officer?
I guess you’ve made your mind up, and no one is going to change it. I can see why the POA didn’t support you when you ran for Council. Good thing huh?
Pat #19,
Just because you went on a ride along with an officer on a Friday night you are not suddenly an expert on what an officer goes through on a regular basis during the course of his or her 25-30 year career. To think so you are being ignorant. Why don’t you go on a ride along each night for a year working the midnight shift on the eastside? Better yet, why don’t you go through the hiring process, academy and field training program so you can actually do the job rather than sitting in a safe seat in the car. It is funny how politicians like to go on a ride along with an officer to “show their support for the boys in blue” and you are suddenly one of them. You are dangerously ignorant on the subject if you don’t think officers confront extremely dangerous subjects alone and on a regular basis. Each time they make a carstop they are alone and have no idea if a driver or passenger is your grandma or a third striker who just commited a crime and vows not to go back to prison.
You state “being a police officer in San Jose is way different than being one in Oakland. Compensation should reflect that”
San Jose has had at least 3 different incidents this past year alone in which officers were shot at. Did you know that, Pat? It is though the grace of god they didn’t get shot or killed. Tell the Fontana family San Jose is way different than Oakland. Our police department is one of the most professional and highly trained in not only the state but the nation and they do it with one of the lowest per capita staffing rates in the nation for a city of our size. They have traditionally done a great job of keeping a lid on crime and nipping problems in the bud with the support of the citizens, city council and mayor. You in turn want to reward good police work by reducing their compensation to reflect the great job they are doing. That is the difference between us and Oakland, Pat. In Oakland, there is no support of the police and it has turned into a state of chaos. Pat, you are foolish if you think this couldn’t happen here in San Jose. Reducing compensation would force out good officers and attract applicants with a security guard mentality. If you want to go down the road of being just like Oakland that is a great start.
I understand your conclusion in post #24, but I also think your comparisons don’t hold up to scrutiny. While it might be true that logging is statistically more dangerous than police work, the dangerous elements in logging are few, and are almost completely avoidable if one exercises caution and follows the rules. The same is true of the other dangerous jobs you listed (though I acknowledge that weather and rogue waves represent unavoidable dangers to fishermen). But for cops, there is simply no safe way to do many of the things they do every day. Officers killed in the line of duty are typically doing everything right, but there is no training that can guarantee the safety of an officer: from a traffic violator pulling out a gun and shooting him; when entering into the home of a husband gone berserk; when searching a dark building for hidden burglar; when standing on the roadway investigating a crash; when wrestling with an unarmed man who is impervious to pain; when targeted by someone with a scoped rifle and a political grudge; when tracking down a murderer who has nothing to lose.
The last SJ officer to die was making a traffic stop, something department members probably do 500 times a day. Before that, an officer was killed after approaching a homeless man who was acting strangely, another when processing a drunk driver, another was electrocuted investigating a minor traffic accident. These are all things done by officers every day. The danger they face is constant and typically indistinguishable from the routine. If they do their jobs with maximum caution they will be corrected or terminated for treating the public too harshly; if they do it just right it will go unnoticed and unrewarded; but if they do it just a teeny bit too casually they just might wind up dead.
Besides the physical danger, our cops also face the daily wrath of the unstable, the intoxicated, the radical, and the Mercury News. They are routinely defamed in court by sleezy attorneys, regularly targeted by political groups looking for some free cash, and regularly sued for doing a job that sometimes has ugly consequences.
There are some conditions in which loggers, fishermen, farmers, and construction workers won’t work. Cops work all the time, respond to all calls for assistance, and are never, ever allowed to give up.
Greg #18,
Sorry for the confusion. Bob from Almaden Valley is wrong. An officers pension is based soley on his last 3 years average yearly salary alone, nothing else. There is no police officer getting a $400,000 year pension. Bob named one deputy fire chief who was given a lump sum of over $400,000 for accrued sick time and vacation over a career which he apparently never took time off for. I agree that amount is outrageous, but he is not getting a pension based on that amount but just his salary alone. Your average grunt street patrol office burns most of his sick time before the end of his/her service due to injury or illness and doesn’t have the luxury of avoiding injury or illness by being in an office setting.
Pat #29,
So we reward the officers who have been doing more with less than years keeping our crime rate low by reducing their pay so that it is lower than a high crime rate city pays its officers? By your logic our officers should stop doing anything and let the crime rate soar so they get paid more. Pat, you sound like you are from the corporate world and this logic is precisely why corporations are so screwed up; they reward failure and take advantage of those who work the hardest, precisely what you are proposing for our officers. These corporations are now on governmental welfare. You keep holding up corporations as something to pattern our police department after, but our police department is vastly more successful than the private corporations you pledge blind obeisance to.
My point is that we don’t need to pay $200,000 per year to compensate police and fire for the risk.
Police and fire are not especially dangerous professions. They have 14 to 18 deaths per 100,000 workers.
Logging has 117.
An unarmed tree, if falling, is considerably more dangerous than a armed suspect. About seven times as dangerous.
So don’t tell me that we need to raise taxes on loggers, construction workers, delivery drivers, and fishermen so that we can raise the pay of police officers. But that’s what we’re doing right now.
Not everybody who works for police and fire are making $200k a year. If they are it’s because of the overtime which is due to the short staffed nature of both departments. It’s cheaper to pay the overtime than it is to hire and train a new recruit with benefits.
And to clear the air, NOBODY get’s a $400k a year pension….. Not one single person.
Last time I checked Fish don’t shoot back and Firefighters are routinely up on a roof with a chainsaw cutting (sometimes up to 100’), the difference is this wood is on fire and there are people inside….
While I appreciate being able to choose to eat fish and build a house made of wood those are choices!!! Having your house catch on fire and being assaulted by some pcp’er is not!!!
My point, they had a choice in their professions as do Police and Firefighters. The difference is Police and Fire save lives by risking their own and as such should be compensated for it.
San Jose Fire has lost 14 men in the line of duty over the years. Those were sacrifices by people saving others.
Please don’t compare them to Fishermen and Loggers…. It’s apples and oranges.
ps. what’s your life worth? What would you pay to have a stranger risk their life for you?
#30, Kathleen, research also shows that the police officer divorce rate is below that of such similarly (jk) stressful positions as dancers, bartenders, massage therapists, extruding machine operators, and telephone operators, among others (Dr. Michael Aamodt, Radford University).
Are you aware that many of San Jose’s sworn police officers are paid their risk-based salaries (and benefits) for sitting behind a desk, just like an office job. Is that reasonable?
And again, have I stated anywhere here that our officers’ pay should be reduced?
If what you are proposing is a risk-based pay scale, which statistic do you favor for assessing risk? Is it the homicide rate, the violent crime rate, the rate of officer-injury, the rate of officer-murders? If you’re looking for the single best indicator of danger (to citizens and the police) then you might want to base the police officer pay rate on the percentage of blacks and/or Hispanics in the community. After all, in America nothing says danger better.
But wait. Cities disproportionately populated by blacks and Hispanics tend to be depressed economically, so where will these top-dollars for police salaries come from? The answer is, of course, nowhere, which is why cities like Oakland, Salinas, East Palo Alto, and Stockton—despite their substantial crime problems, pay less than do cities like San Jose, Santa Clara, and Sunnyvale. So, in order for your risk-based pay scale to work, the pay rates in all other police departments will have to be lowered—a solution you’ve already denied endorsing.
But there’s more. By your own take regarding the consequences of your solution, the more “rational” police applicants would opt to work for less money in one of the safer cities. If that’s the case, exactly what kind of “less rational” bunch are you expecting for the good people of Oakland, Salinas, East Palo Alto, and Stockton? Mercenaries? Hell’s Angels? Psychological washouts from other agencies?
If you want to know what police work looks like when a city hires the people best qualified to serve the community, take a look at San Jose PD, Santa Clara, PD, or Sunnyvale DPS. However, if you want to know what police work looks like when risk-taking is emphasized, take a look at how well Blackwater Worldwide has served the fine citizens of Baghdad.
#32, Frank, I’ve never been in a corporation where failure is rewarded. That’s a sure route to oblivion.
Where did I say that we should reduce the pay of SJPD officers? I stated that the lower risk environment in which they work should dictate a lower risk-based compensation than Oakland. Does that not make sense to you?
And yes, if the risk of being a police officer in SJ increased, then by all means, we should pay them more. We would have to, because rational applicants would prefer to work somewhere “safer” for less money! What a surprise. But we should also get rid of the officers that made our environment so.
Let me address your other points…
Other than banks, the corporations currently on “government welfare” are Chrysler and GM…two of the most heavily unionized corporations in the nation. What a surprise! Many banks are busy trying to figure out how to give back TARP money, because the strings attached are too onerous. Our government, on the other hand, is trying to to prevent that. Imagine that, not wanting your money back sooner, rather than later!
I agree that we have a good police department. They are able to deliver better than average crime statistics with above average staffing metrics. But we also have some great corporations (HP, Intel, Oracle, Cisco, Wells Fargo, etc)delivering above average results. Please provide statistics that prove your assertion that “our police department is vastly more successful than the private corporations you pledge blind obeisance to.”
The main issue is that private corporations are allowed to fail, governments are bailed out by…taxpayers. We’re getting tired of it.
Pat,
Your figures on divorce rates for Police Officers are incorrect. Divorce rates are between 60-80%.
In my post #25, I gave you plenty of links verifying the health problems Police Officers endure. I honestly had to laugh when I saw you equating the stress of professions like “dancers, bartenders, massage therapists, extruding machine operators, and telephone operators, among others (Dr. Michael Aamodt, Radford University),” to that of a Police Officer. Come on Pat that is just ridiculous.
I am still waiting for you to come up with an amount YOU think we should pay Police Officers. Give us a break down of what you think each kind of Officer should receive. I’d be very interested to see what price you’ll put on men and women, who by mere virtue of putting on that badge and uniform, put their lives at risk to some fool with a gun, or other weapon.
Pat Waite said, “And yes, if the risk of being a police officer in SJ increased, then by all means, we should pay them more. We would have to, because rational applicants would prefer to work somewhere “safer” for less money! What a surprise. But we should also get rid of the officers that made our environment so.”
We live in a City of 1 MILLION people. We presently have 1,356 Police Officers to serve us. Police dispatch receives almost 1 million Police assist calls per year. So you tell me, with a City that contains MORE criminals than Police Officers, and the State getting ready to release even more criminals from State prisons early, due to over crowding, what are the odds our small Police force will be equipped to keep us safe, without endangering their own lives?
As for the banks that received TAX PAYER bailouts, they are KEEPING that money from citizens. They won’t extend credit, (hence the reason car companies, etc. are going out of business.) they are bleeding credit card holders dry, and have given themselves some awesome raises and perks while cheating the American people. Frank is 100% correct, their greed knows no bounds, and there is little oversight or accountability to the very people who saved their sorry asses. These huge cooperation’s have wiped out small businesses one by one leaving us to their mercy. Well, it seems the tides a changing Pat. Hold on to your hat Pat cause the little guy is getting angry and starting to fight back~
#39, Kathleen, I guess you didn’t equate (jk) with (just kidding). I would never equate the job stress of sworn officers with those of dancers, bartenders, etc.
And I’m still waiting for the source of your divorce statistics…it wasn’t in any of the links you left in #25 (most of which went to articles on the same study out of Buffalo), unless I inadvertently overlooked it.
I think we’re basically in violent agreement…yes, police officers have stressful jobs; yes, they should be compensated appropriately to reflect that. It’s a question of what or who defines “appropriately.” That’s partly what we elect representatives to determine.
#38, Finfan, at least on a starting basis, Oakland officers are paid more than in San Jose, reflective of the need to attract officers to a “riskier” environment. I’m sure the officers in Oakland are as rational as those in San Jose…hence the higher starting salaries in Oakland.
You stated, “Starting salary of over $70K for somebody with an associates degree is pretty significant.”
While this is the minimum school requirement for San Jose Officers the vast amount have way more schooling than that. Many have 4 year degrees, Master Degrees, and a few have Doctorate degrees. There are many officers at the department who followed a calling to be an officer and changed careers. There are officers who are engineers, lawyers, clergy, doctors, teachers, pilots, air traffic controllers, contractors, CPA’s, profession athletes, gourmet chefs, business owners and formmer high ranking corporate employees. There are former military officers who went to prestigious military schools and attained very high ranks in the military.
This braintrust of our very talented and bright officers is why our department has been able to get away with one of the lowest staffed police departments for its size in the United States, while keeping San Jose’s crime rate very low while crime in Oakland, Berkeley, San Francisco, Richmond etc is out of control.
Pat, being of the corporate world you surely realize that the higher the pay of a job opening attracts more quality and educated applicants. 70k may be a good salary for someone with an AA degree but would attract far fewer talented and educated applicants than SJPD gets now.
#40, Kathleen, the banks are “KEEPING” the money because the government has told them to increase their capital bases. That was the purpose of the “stress tests” that government did. And the only way to increase the capital base is to take in more funds than are being given out. It’s not possible to loan out 100% of the TARP money and increase the capital base simultaneously. Unless, of course, you go to the capital markets (which some banks are doing).
But people are somewhat reluctant to invest in banks because of the uncertainty over where the government is heading vis a vis bank regulations/nationalization/mortgage cramdowns/etc. Investors dislike such uncertainty.
What you imply about the corporate world also seems to be coming true in government & politics…“the little guy is getting angry and starting to fight back.”
Now it is your turn Pat, since you have avoided the question several times now. Put a salary and benefit number on what you think our Police Officers should earn, and STOP evading the question with more questions Pat.
#44- Pat,
So what is your point? Screwing and betraying the trust of taxpayers is okay because the big bad government is to blame for the reckless loan sharking of the poor innocent banks? Give me a break. You must fair very well in the world you live in Pat because you just honestly don’t get it at all.
SJ gets away with low staffing because of the unusually good officers compared to Oakland and Berkeley?
No, SJ gets away with low staffing because it has fewer poor people.
Or should I heap praise on the excellent police officers of Atherton and Pebble Beach? I’m sure they have even lower violent crime rates.
beginner#35-
$200,000 includes pension and retirement medical. SJ has plenty of officers earnign 200K when you remember to include the gold plated retirement. (Not everyone gets to retire at 50 but keep their medical coverage and most of their salary)
Pat,
You crack me up. You ask for proof, you get it, but dismiss it because you don’t like what it says. All references given ARE based on studies. Many cite studies and survey’s done etc.
The book you are referring to sounds like yet another that says what you want to hear. If you have an open mind, and really want to get at the truth, rather then relying on one book, I suggest that since you don’t agree with the sources I’ve cited, that you venture past your book and research the topic a bit more.
And yes, divorce is sad no matter what profession you are in. We live in a society that seems to lack the true understanding of what love and commitment truly are. We live in a real throw a way society!
Glad to hear you don’t think Police Officers are over paid, and support their hard work. Public safety should never be looked upon as a budget item, but rather a priority that we need to have above all else.
#37 wrote:”#32, Frank, I’ve never been in a corporation where failure is rewarded. That’s a sure route to oblivion.”
So,we now know that you have never worked for Morgan Stanley, B of A, GM, or Chrysler… Back in the ‘60s when my wife worked for B of A, the mantra of the staff was f*ck up, move up. Yet it lasted for decades until the mortgage meltdown.
#45, Kathleen, none of your references cite any verifiable studies. I have provided verifiable information.
To my previous citations, I’ll add this from the book I Love a Cop, by Ellen Kirschman: “Statistics about divorce in police work are very hard to pin down and are inherently unreliable.” (page 5 of the introduction). She also notes that “[t]here are so many variables to be considered in studying divorce that it is simply unwise to infer a cause and effect relationship between police work and divorce on the basis of statistics alone.” I respect your opinion, but in this case I think I’ll go with Ms. Kirschman.
In addition, Kappeler, Blumberg and Potter, in The Mythology of Crime and Criminal Justice (Waveland Press, 2000), cite studies showing “police officers have a divorce rate that is no higher than the national average.” Saying the rate is higher doesn’t make it so.
It is sad when a marriage ends in divorce…whatever the occupation of the couple.
As for what our hard working officers should be paid, I’ve stated several times that I do not advocate cutting their pay. Based on that, one might infer that I believe they are getting paid what they are worth. They work hard, have stressful lives, and are fairly compensated for it.
There were three people at the scene, and one of them is dead, and there were NINETY WITNESSES? How can that be?
A cop killer doesn’t go to trial for over eight years, while his family suffers. Criminals have all the rights, victims and their families apparently have none. The pendulum has swung WAY TOO FAR. More balance is needed.
“But the prosecution contended that Fontana may have tried to radio in the stop, but was hampered either by the existence of dead spots in Almaden Valley or by a simultaneous radio transmission by another officer. The radio system to this day can only receive one call at a time.”
2009 in the heart of (SJ officials would like you to believe, the capital) Silicon Valley, and our cops are hampered by a system that can take only one call at a time!!?? Dead spots, where cops are out of contact???!!! It’s a wonder more cops aren’t killed here.
I agree with #51. I worked at Ford Motor Company from 1937 to 1986. I was promoted to senior vice president after a lot of people were killed in the Ford Pinto which I designed.
Thanks for providing this link. Justice has finally been served and I hope the Fontana family finds some comfort in this. I can’t imagine the unfathomable grief they will have to endure every day for the rest of their lives at the loss of their son.
Anon,
Not everybody in public safety retires out at 50 either. The average employee is hired late in life (late 20’s early 30’s) after 30 years to get the full pension they are late 50’s or mid 60’s.
Your still incorrect about pension payout. Yes, there are a few folks who make above 200k per year but the majority don’t.
Go to a retirement meeting before throwing out judgement. They are open to the public. You’ll see first hand all the broken cops and firemen after 30 years of chasing suspects and running into burning buildings.
And don’t forget, gold plated cops and firemen are not part of the POA and SJFF. They are management and as such negotiate differently than the run of the mill cop or fireman. If you got a gripe about the gold played pay, go tell Debra. Those are her employees.
Where do you get your information San Jose has less poor people than other cities?
One of the big reasons we have a low crime rate is because there are no ultra concentrations of poverty like you find in the tenements of Oakland and San Francisco which destroys neighborhoods and attracts criminals. Historically, whenever such an area has started to develop in San Jose and criminal activites started to spike within that area the police department stepped up enforcement and aggressively nipped problems in the bud. The police department, despite what the Mercury would have you believe, has emphasized community policing and developed a trust within these areas to the point where people aren’t afraid to report crime or call code enforcement. Also, the police department has always had the backing of the city council and mayor, whereas in Oakland the officers are hated by most of their own city leaders. This became obvious when one of the Officers slain in Oakland had specifically put in his will that if he got killed in the line of duty he did not want Oakland’s Mayor, Ron Dellums, to give any type of eulogy at his funeral. Oakland has great cops but ask them why crime is rampant in their city and they will tell you of areas allowed to fester with criminals and the city council and mayor not allowing aggressive enforcement. The vicious cycle repeats and and propagates, attracting more poverty and criminals and causing property values to collapse. I know Oakland cops and they have told me as such. We are all very ignorant if we fool ourselves into believing this could never happen in San Jose.
San Jose has historically gone down a different road than these other cities due to, in part, the support of the police department, aggressive policing in problem areas, and good utilization of limited resources. Oakland could have done this to but something went terribly astray in their decision making process. If anything, Oakland should have been vastly more successful than San Jose being a port city and proximity to one of the most beautiful areas in the world.
I don’t think the police department has prevented pockets of poverty. Police can keep those areas from being crime ridden, but police can’t keep people from being poor.
I agree with you about Dellums, though. Complete disaster.
3% at 50 doesn’t help Oakland, though. Senior officers retired earlier. Expenses went up, which made it harder to hire enough officers to do the job. The net result of 3% at 50 is that Oakland has fewer officers, which is the last thing Oakland needs.
(Not that Dellums would hire them if he had the money. But Jerry Brown would have. And De La Fuente or Perata will if they are elected.)
#56 wrote:“The average employee is hired late in life (late 20’s early 30’s).” LATE IN LIFE, late twenties?? And here they’ve been telling me that 60 is the new 40.
OH, GREAT!! a 31-year-old who barely shaves is in charge of restrucuring GM. Thanks, Obama! From Yahoo:
It is not every 31-year-old who, in a first government job, finds himself dismantling General Motors and rewriting the rules of American capitalism.
But that, in short, is the job description for Brian Deese, a not-quite graduate of Yale Law School who had never set foot in an automotive assembly plant until he took on his nearly unseen role in remaking the American automotive industry.
More from NYTimes.com:
• After Many Stumbles, Fall of GM
• Obama Makes a Risky Bet to Save an American Icon
• Cracking the Code as Tax Changes Loom
Nor, for that matter, had he given much thought to what ailed an industry that had been in decline ever since he was born. A bit laconic and looking every bit the just-out-of-graduate-school student adjusting to life in the West Wing — “he’s got this beard that appears and disappears,” says Steven Rattner, one of the leaders of President Obama’s automotive task force — Mr. Deese was thrown into the auto industry’s maelstrom as soon the election-night parties ended.
Stephen Crowley/The New York Times
“There was a time between Nov. 4 and mid-February when I was the only full-time member of the auto task force,” Mr. Deese, a special assistant to the president for economic policy, acknowledged recently as he hurried between his desk at the White House and the Treasury building next door. “It was a little scary.”
But now, according to those who joined him in the middle of his crash course about the automakers’ downward spiral, he has emerged as one of the most influential voices in what may become President Obama’s biggest experiment yet in federal economic intervention.
While far more prominent members of the administration are making the big decisions about Detroit, it is Mr. Deese who is often narrowing their options.
A month ago, when the administration was divided over whether to support Fiat’s bid to take over much of Chrysler, it was Mr. Deese who spoke out strongly against simply letting the company go into liquidation, according to several people who were present for the debate.
Permit me to enclose a letter written by a concerned resident to a local newspaper. While there may be some mis-statements, the letter quite nicely compares compensation between public and private sector employees.
“WILLOW GLEN RESIDENT”
May 22, 2009
“As a citizen of San Jose, I am very pleased with the public safety provided by the city’s fire and police personnel. That being said, attention needs to be directed to the chronic city budget deficit.
The projected city deficit for the 2009-2010 year is $75 million. Employee costs make up 70 percent of the budget. A recent listing in the Mercury News has shown actual payout to city employees for the last year.
Topped by retired deputy fire chief, James Carter, at $433,489, there were 66 employees who got 200,000 or better, and the list expanded to 2,662 who got $100,000 or better. There were many police and fire captains who got $250,000.
These positions are equivalent to second-line management in industry, but industry managers typically do not get overtime pay, pay for sick days not taken, and free medical benefits for life. The industry manager typically gets a 401K plan: that is a defined contribution not a defined benefit, not 90 percent of the final year’s pay for retirement with 3 percent yearly increases as some of the city’s police and firemen do.
If the public safety employees would take a 50 percent pay and benefit decrease, they would be getting more in line with similar industry employees. The city employee retirement benefit is based on the final year’s pay level times 3 percent for every year employed. There is no averaging out pay over several years, and by concentrating on just the final year, sick leave and overtime payments can be included. James Carter worked 36 years, which means his yearly retirement income could be close to $400,000 for the rest of his life.
A city official recently said that “the unions get it.” I do not know what this means. The unions certainly get paid a lot, but in the recently proposed budget, there were sacrifices to be made by the public, including higher fees and taxes and fewer library hours, but nowhere is there mention of any union give-backs.
There is mention that the unions are willing to delay wage increases. You wonder what the city was thinking when it agreed to such generous union contracts. Recent openings in the fire department got a reported 1,000 applicants.
Last year, Vallejo filed Chapter 9 bankruptcy because it could not afford its union contracts. It should never reach this point.
The object of city administration should be to provide public safety and services. It should not b to provide and protect good jobs and good pay. The city should be organized to serve the public. The public should not serve the city by maintaining good-paying city jobs at the expense of increased fees and reduced public services.”
BOB BOYDSTON
Almaden Valley
Hello John Galt,
Thank you for your comment #10 on Rants & Raves of May 2, 2009 which explains why nobody in San Jose gives a damn, except for their own little neighborhood or the mighty Do$$ar.
Don’t know if Galt is your real name, but Wikipedia possibly describes you:
“John Galt is a fictional character in Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged. Although he is absent from much of the text, he is the subject of the novel’s oft repeated question, “Who is John Galt?”, and the quest to discover the answer.
As the plot unfolds, Galt is acknowledged to be a creator and inventor who embodies the power of the individual capitalist. He serves as an idealistic counterpoint to the social and economic structure depicted in the novel. The depiction portrays a society based on oppressive bureaucratic functionaries and a culture that embraces the “stifling mediocrity” and egalitarianism of socialistic idealism. In this popular mass ideology, he is a metaphorical Atlas of Greek mythology, holding up the world.
An engineer by trade, Galt’s actions include withdrawing his talents, “stopping the motor of the world,” and leading the “strikers” (in this case the captains of industry) against the “looters” (in this case the mob rule of the bureaucrats and their supporters). The storyline unfolds by exploring rumors and legends about the identity of Galt. Galt’s actual identity is learned only after a prolonged search by Dagny Taggart, the heroine of the story, with whom Galt has a romantic relationship. Galt is also referred to in the story as the Mystery Worker.”
Haven’t read “Atlas Shrugged” yet, but I’ll check it out from the library.
Sorry I can’t get a great “Youth Hostel” opened in San Jose. Dropped off a friend at SJC last night and then cruised a bit around town. I’m really impressed how San Jose has changed since I attended SJSU in the mid-Seventies. Much Downtown is new with beautiful wide streets and tall buildings, often lit up at night. The area around SJSU has visibly improved. Guadalupe Expressway wasn’t when I attended SJSU nor the parks along the creek.
In the old days San Jose was the area’s merchant center, the big Sears store, OSH, Downtown jewelers, first class hotels, the transportation hub. Now you can get this and more everywhere else except for the County Government Center, the regional airport, HP Pavilion and a few museums. Other places now also have symphonies, theaters, special events, junior colleges, shopping, restaurants.
San Jose has lost its allure as the Center of what is now Silicon Valley.
Seems there is little effort to attract tourists, except those attending conventions.
The empty San Jose Water Company building on Santa Clara Ave, between HP Pavilion and Downtown and close to Didiron would be a great hostel location but our non-profit is without the $$$.
Oh well, hope to have more luck in Santa Clara, Campbell, Mountain View, Sunnyvale (which has problems creating a viable downtown and might desire a hostel) or Palo Alto.
Surely some high-tech company canning up to 25% of workforce might offer a surplus building to take off its tax rolls (since no one is buying) and convert to hostel use. In return the company could market its products to the college-educated international crowd that prefers to stay at our hostels and hire the brightest. The hostel is a good place to temporarily house their overseas trainees and interns. A win-win for everyone.
The hostel’s future Google Earth Dome might rival SJ City Hall Dome. With combination of planetarium and Disneyland 360 screen showing Earth, Space, Ocean, this could be a tourist attraction and be lot more useful than City Hall’s.
Thanks again for accurately describing San Jose’s mindset.
1trick pgp3
It is ironic that most of the bitching about the salary of public safety employees seems to come from the highest income areas of San Jose which is Almaden Valley, Rose Garden and Willow Glen. I wonder when the last time Bob or Mr. Moly fought with a 250 pound parolee high on PCP intent on severely injuring or killing them? When was the last time they walked into a volatile domestic violence situation which is the most deadly of all police calls and our officers do on a regular basis? When was the last time they dealt with a horrific car accident or murder scene and the mutilated bodies and devastated family memebers? When was the last time they dealt with some sick pedophile intent on victimizing our children? When was the last time they walked into a business that was just robbed at gunpoint not knowing if the suspect was waiting to ambush them in the store? When was the last time they were shot at or somebody charged them with a knife? The residents of San Jose who are blessed with living in the most affluent areas are the ones least affected by violent crimes. Those in the other areas tend to know what our officers deal with. Funny that Mr. Boyden in Almaden Valley of all places wants our police officers to take a 50% paycut. That would put the average street officer at about $55,000 a year. There may be upper management salaries at the police or fire department which are too high. Deal with that. I really don’t want to put my families life in the hands of a security guard which is what you are going to get for $55,000 a year. Even in these times you get what you pay for. You want a professional police department that makes due with half the officers other cities of comparable size to San Jose have then you have to pay the officers we have a good salary. You want them to risk their lives for you and beat the crap out of their own bodies for 30 years on a daily basis then they need a good retirement so they are not hesitant about walking into unknown volatile situations and getting hurt. Maybe the fire department gets thousands of applicants but the police department gets far, far fewer and less that 10% of those pass the background check, academy and the field training program. The police department also contributes a large amount of their own gross salary into their own retirement fund and recently agreed to pay 5% of their gross salary into prefunding their medical retirement costs although there is little mention of this.
#4-Frank,
Very, very well said, and absolutely true!
Ever wonder why mainstream newspapers are going down the tubes? The Sacramento Bee’s post-election editorial last week provides a good case study. It seems that the Bee’s editorial board published an editorial blasting the wisdom of the voters’ decision to vote down 1A-1E. The tone of the editorial was haughty and condescending. There was so much reader blowback that the Bee was forced to delete the offending editorial and replace it with a completely different version. Naturally, the Bee couldn’t own up to being a bunch of condescending liberals, so they came up with a lame excuse that the first editorial was only a “internal draft.” Right. Anybody beliving the Bee’s lame explanation contact me; I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
The story is told here:
http://patterico.com/2009/05/20/sacramento-bee-editors-deep-six-haughty-editorial-criticizing-voters-in-favor-of-one-that-lays-into-those-damn-politicians/
and here:
http://blog.infinitemonkeysblog.com/?q=node/6417
This should be required reading for “how not to run a vewspaper.
FYI, a public employee pension of $400K/year for an individual living to age 85, discounted at a nominal rate of return of 5%, approaches $6,000,000.
Given the dire State budget situation, get ready for the giant sucking sound that results from the State vacuuming up every last dollar of RDA funding remaining.
It would shock me if Sacramento didn’t shut down all RDAs statewide and redeploy the monies to their rightful beneficiaries – schools and basic infrastructure.
#1
At the most recent Bruce Springsteen concert in the HP Pavilion, the sound was terrible. We had good seats, not too close but the sound was extremely loud to the point of being painful. Even with ear plugs, the sound was still loud enough to give me a headache. The sound was much better at the concert before in the Oakland Arena.
#7
FYI, a public employee pension of $400K/year for an individual living to age 85..
Wow. 400K a year!! Even I could live on that.
#7 Greg,
Which public employee retired with a $400,000 a year pension as you stated?
It seems that cutting Fourth of July fireworks is a trend all over the country.
http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/23/rethinking-july-4th-fireworks/
I attended the Fleetwood Mac Concert on the 21st. I was able to buy a single best available in the 116 section. I was close and expected to hear some great sounds as I had experienced at Shore Line several years ago from them.
I knew from the first song the notes did not sparkle for me.
My question today is , do the groups that perform bring their own speakers? Was it the section I was in?
I recall sitting in the nose bleed area and experiencing the same sound effects. Yet I have been there for some great music at times.
I was disapointed and decided to leave after 5 or 6 songs. It was fun getting excited about even getting a ticket at the very last minute. Henry’s was packed with concert goers, that was fun as well. I went home and listened to their music.
Mac Attack
Security Guards don’t get 3% at 50 pensions or lifetime medical care.
Once you count those and add in overtime, average police officers earn close to $200,000.
That’s more than we pay to other people who do more dangerous work.
Frank,
Read the letter contained in comment #2 above. I’d like to believe that it’s untrue.
#4, Frank, I suggest you look at the non-retirement turnover statistics for the city to determine what city employees think about their compensation packages. It might open your eyes.
#12-10 MHz Days,
Yes, I have read many stories like this. The odd thing I’ve noticed though is that many cities like ours are still funding other festivals and celebrations. I wonder why the birth and independence of our country, and honoring our Vets ranks last on the list of important, and affordable celebrations. It is right up there with no more saying Merry Christmas, just Happy Holidays. No more having Christmas decorations in areas that might offend some other religion, or no more hanging the American flag out because that might offend someone. Just sad and ridiculous.
Hum. May be I woke up in another country and just don’t know it yet.
Greg #14
You obviously didn’t pay much attention to my post in #4 because my entire comment was in response to #2.
Pat #15
Why don’t you go fight in the middle of the night on some dark street with no backup a 250 pound parolee who hates cops high on PCP who has spent the last 5 years in prison working out in prison and then get back to us. My comment in #4 was directed to our police officers only, who confront these thugs on a daily basis. They earn every cent they get and then some. Ask the families of the 4 dead police officers in Oakland.
Frank,
I don’t think there’s any thing more “obvious” than your inability to keep track of your messages – you specifically addressed me in message #11.
Has anyone else noticed how the Murky News is now deleting reader’s comments that question the accuracy of Merc stories? Pretty chicken…
Example: For the past few days readers comments quickly disappear from the article that blasts cops for “refusing” to turn 911 tapes over to the Merc in a case that is still under investigation! Posts that point out the obvious fallacy of this are taken down.
The Merc can’t blame layoffs for this, just it’s own bad judgment.
I’m a fan of newspapers, but the Merc is an embarrassment. If Media News turned the Merc over to the students of SJSU’s Spartan Daily the result would be a better newspaper.
Frank, #17, I have ridden along with our officers on a Friday night. I appreciate what they do to keep our city safe. They do a very good job of backing each other up. I suspect that they don’t often end up approaching a “250 lb parolee who hates cops high on PCB who has spent the last 5 years in prison working out in prison” without support. They approach almost everyone with support.
I appreciate all that our people in blue do for us. But being a police officer in San Jose is way different than being one in Oakland. Compensation should reflect that.
#22,
Incompetence may be just as likely as censorship. The Mercury News web site is one of the slowest, most poorly designed sites I have ever used. In the past when an article was updated it was considered a new article and the previous comments were deleted.
No politician will admit it, but being a police officer is not a riskly profession.
It’s not even in the top ten. Nor is being a fireman.
The dangerous professions are all private sector. Logger. Fisherman. Farmer. Steel construction worker. Even delivery driver is more dangerous than policeman.
Give respect where it is due.
Pat Waite,
No offense intended but, would you put your life on the line everyday for that kind of salary and compensation?
I wouldn’t, especially given how ungrateful people are to the Police for providing such a vital service to the community, and given how out numbered Police Officers are by the thousands of criminals out there. Just wait until they release the thousands more non violent criminals from State prison due to the budget and over crowding. Your nice safe neighborhood won’t be so safe any more, if we don’t get more Police Officers out on the street.
Do you realize how many of these Officers lose their families because they are never home? Do you ever think about what they see and hear on a daily basis? Child molestation, rape, murders, children in gangs, drug use, child neglect, you name it they see and hear it.
Can you imagine the high blood pressure, heart trouble, and other physical problems they endure from a stressful job like this? I don’t think you get it Pat. Start with these and educate yourself. Then put a dollar amount on what you think they should get paid, and let us know what you come up with.
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/09/26/researchers.investigate.impact.stress.police.officers.physical.and.mental.health
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/9660
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080926105029.htm
http://www.policestressandhealth.net/research.htm
You remind me of men in the old days that think being a housewife and mother is an admiral job, but that the job isn’t worth getting paid much to do it.
Reader,
Media that deletes or refuses to print criticism by posters are cowards. They scream First Amendment Rights for themselves, but they don’t extend it to us.
The other day I called KGO radio because the Mayor was on. They were talking about the budget, the Police etc. I called in, was on hold for quit awhile, and the idiot who picked up the phone asked me what I wanted to talk about. I said victim’s rights, the Police, and a rally I was in the process of forming. He said, “No rallies, no victim’s rights, not today.” And promptly hung up on me. I thought he might not have understood me, so I called back, waited again; the same guy answers the phone again. I say, I want to talk about victim’s rights and crime in San Jose. He again says, “No I don’t want to talk about that today,” and hung up on me.
A few minutes later, I hear a caller asking the Mayor why there is a heavy Police force out during Cinco De Mayo, and why he lets the Police push people around? I guess that was more important than victim’s rights, and crime in San Jose.
Both print, TV, most blogs, and radio media have their own agenda, they don’t give a dam about what matters to us. Their sponsors control the news, big bucks always has!
Kathleen-
Would you want to be on a small ship off the coast of Alaska in bad weather?
Would you want to be be 100 feet up a tree while using a 4 foot chiansaw?
Do you realize how many fishermen and loggers lose their lives to build us homes and feed us?
Can you imagine the grief their widows go through?
Would you put your life on the line for that salary and that compensation?
It’s a much higher risk than police officer, and the pay is less.
Anon,
Not that your comments make any sense given the topic but you say, “It’s a much higher risk than police officer, and the pay is less.”
Why don’t you post the salaries of these professions? According to shows like the “Biggest Catch,” one man on a boat can earn upwards of 100K per outing.
Lots of folks go into professions that are dangerous, but I have yet to see an armed tree ambushing tree cutters, or gangs of angry fish armed with an AK47 killing anyone lately have you?
By the way, no one’s death goes unmourned by those who love them, not even a Librarian, or a dishwasher. Not dangerous professions I grant you, but done by human beings none-the-less.
#20, Frank, & #25, Kathleen, not sure why you think that I believe we should cut police pay. I remarked that SJ police should get paid less that Oakland police (and I suspect that’s true, judging from their web sites). I appreciate all that they do, just like appreciate what most service organizations do. I guess I don’t suffer from your blind obeisance to their courageous fulfillment of their sworn duties.
Frank, our officers are well compensated for the risks they take day in and day out. You can see for yourself at http://www.sjpd.org/joinsjpdblue/SalaryBenefits.html. Starting salary of over $70K for somebody with an associates degree is pretty significant.
Coporate HR types would go nuts if they achieved the low rate of non-retirement turnover that the city experiences. I think that’s a clear indicator that our city employees are being more than fairly compensated.
Kathleen, I suspect on a percentage basis, about as many police officers lose their families as most other professions. We have a very high divorce rate in Santa Clara County…I’m sure it’s not driven by police officers alone.
Pat,
No Police Officer is paid what they are worth. Getting an AA degree, going through vigorous training at the academy, and earning 70K for putting your life on the line is NOTHING. And studies do show that Police Officers have a higher rate of divorce than the average professional. Do you ever read anything outside of budgets, or big business?
Are you really trying to compare an office job to that of a Police Officer?
I guess you’ve made your mind up, and no one is going to change it. I can see why the POA didn’t support you when you ran for Council. Good thing huh?
Pat #19,
Just because you went on a ride along with an officer on a Friday night you are not suddenly an expert on what an officer goes through on a regular basis during the course of his or her 25-30 year career. To think so you are being ignorant. Why don’t you go on a ride along each night for a year working the midnight shift on the eastside? Better yet, why don’t you go through the hiring process, academy and field training program so you can actually do the job rather than sitting in a safe seat in the car. It is funny how politicians like to go on a ride along with an officer to “show their support for the boys in blue” and you are suddenly one of them. You are dangerously ignorant on the subject if you don’t think officers confront extremely dangerous subjects alone and on a regular basis. Each time they make a carstop they are alone and have no idea if a driver or passenger is your grandma or a third striker who just commited a crime and vows not to go back to prison.
You state “being a police officer in San Jose is way different than being one in Oakland. Compensation should reflect that”
San Jose has had at least 3 different incidents this past year alone in which officers were shot at. Did you know that, Pat? It is though the grace of god they didn’t get shot or killed. Tell the Fontana family San Jose is way different than Oakland. Our police department is one of the most professional and highly trained in not only the state but the nation and they do it with one of the lowest per capita staffing rates in the nation for a city of our size. They have traditionally done a great job of keeping a lid on crime and nipping problems in the bud with the support of the citizens, city council and mayor. You in turn want to reward good police work by reducing their compensation to reflect the great job they are doing. That is the difference between us and Oakland, Pat. In Oakland, there is no support of the police and it has turned into a state of chaos. Pat, you are foolish if you think this couldn’t happen here in San Jose. Reducing compensation would force out good officers and attract applicants with a security guard mentality. If you want to go down the road of being just like Oakland that is a great start.
Anon,
I understand your conclusion in post #24, but I also think your comparisons don’t hold up to scrutiny. While it might be true that logging is statistically more dangerous than police work, the dangerous elements in logging are few, and are almost completely avoidable if one exercises caution and follows the rules. The same is true of the other dangerous jobs you listed (though I acknowledge that weather and rogue waves represent unavoidable dangers to fishermen). But for cops, there is simply no safe way to do many of the things they do every day. Officers killed in the line of duty are typically doing everything right, but there is no training that can guarantee the safety of an officer: from a traffic violator pulling out a gun and shooting him; when entering into the home of a husband gone berserk; when searching a dark building for hidden burglar; when standing on the roadway investigating a crash; when wrestling with an unarmed man who is impervious to pain; when targeted by someone with a scoped rifle and a political grudge; when tracking down a murderer who has nothing to lose.
The last SJ officer to die was making a traffic stop, something department members probably do 500 times a day. Before that, an officer was killed after approaching a homeless man who was acting strangely, another when processing a drunk driver, another was electrocuted investigating a minor traffic accident. These are all things done by officers every day. The danger they face is constant and typically indistinguishable from the routine. If they do their jobs with maximum caution they will be corrected or terminated for treating the public too harshly; if they do it just right it will go unnoticed and unrewarded; but if they do it just a teeny bit too casually they just might wind up dead.
Besides the physical danger, our cops also face the daily wrath of the unstable, the intoxicated, the radical, and the Mercury News. They are routinely defamed in court by sleezy attorneys, regularly targeted by political groups looking for some free cash, and regularly sued for doing a job that sometimes has ugly consequences.
There are some conditions in which loggers, fishermen, farmers, and construction workers won’t work. Cops work all the time, respond to all calls for assistance, and are never, ever allowed to give up.
P.S. I believe SJPD is taking applications.
Greg #18,
Sorry for the confusion. Bob from Almaden Valley is wrong. An officers pension is based soley on his last 3 years average yearly salary alone, nothing else. There is no police officer getting a $400,000 year pension. Bob named one deputy fire chief who was given a lump sum of over $400,000 for accrued sick time and vacation over a career which he apparently never took time off for. I agree that amount is outrageous, but he is not getting a pension based on that amount but just his salary alone. Your average grunt street patrol office burns most of his sick time before the end of his/her service due to injury or illness and doesn’t have the luxury of avoiding injury or illness by being in an office setting.
Pat #29,
So we reward the officers who have been doing more with less than years keeping our crime rate low by reducing their pay so that it is lower than a high crime rate city pays its officers? By your logic our officers should stop doing anything and let the crime rate soar so they get paid more. Pat, you sound like you are from the corporate world and this logic is precisely why corporations are so screwed up; they reward failure and take advantage of those who work the hardest, precisely what you are proposing for our officers. These corporations are now on governmental welfare. You keep holding up corporations as something to pattern our police department after, but our police department is vastly more successful than the private corporations you pledge blind obeisance to.
Kathleen-
My point is that we don’t need to pay $200,000 per year to compensate police and fire for the risk.
Police and fire are not especially dangerous professions. They have 14 to 18 deaths per 100,000 workers.
Logging has 117.
An unarmed tree, if falling, is considerably more dangerous than a armed suspect. About seven times as dangerous.
So don’t tell me that we need to raise taxes on loggers, construction workers, delivery drivers, and fishermen so that we can raise the pay of police officers. But that’s what we’re doing right now.
I just saw, for the first time, the movie “Unforgiven” by Clint Eastwood. To quote its most memorable line: “DESERVE’s got nothin’ to do with it.”
You can talk all day about what this city’s officials deserve, but what matters in the end is what we can afford. And it ain’t 400K a year.
Anon,
Your figures are old (from 2002).
Not everybody who works for police and fire are making $200k a year. If they are it’s because of the overtime which is due to the short staffed nature of both departments. It’s cheaper to pay the overtime than it is to hire and train a new recruit with benefits.
And to clear the air, NOBODY get’s a $400k a year pension….. Not one single person.
Last time I checked Fish don’t shoot back and Firefighters are routinely up on a roof with a chainsaw cutting (sometimes up to 100’), the difference is this wood is on fire and there are people inside….
While I appreciate being able to choose to eat fish and build a house made of wood those are choices!!! Having your house catch on fire and being assaulted by some pcp’er is not!!!
My point, they had a choice in their professions as do Police and Firefighters. The difference is Police and Fire save lives by risking their own and as such should be compensated for it.
San Jose Fire has lost 14 men in the line of duty over the years. Those were sacrifices by people saving others.
Please don’t compare them to Fishermen and Loggers…. It’s apples and oranges.
ps. what’s your life worth? What would you pay to have a stranger risk their life for you?
#30, Kathleen, research also shows that the police officer divorce rate is below that of such similarly (jk) stressful positions as dancers, bartenders, massage therapists, extruding machine operators, and telephone operators, among others (Dr. Michael Aamodt, Radford University).
Are you aware that many of San Jose’s sworn police officers are paid their risk-based salaries (and benefits) for sitting behind a desk, just like an office job. Is that reasonable?
And again, have I stated anywhere here that our officers’ pay should be reduced?
Pat Waite,
If what you are proposing is a risk-based pay scale, which statistic do you favor for assessing risk? Is it the homicide rate, the violent crime rate, the rate of officer-injury, the rate of officer-murders? If you’re looking for the single best indicator of danger (to citizens and the police) then you might want to base the police officer pay rate on the percentage of blacks and/or Hispanics in the community. After all, in America nothing says danger better.
But wait. Cities disproportionately populated by blacks and Hispanics tend to be depressed economically, so where will these top-dollars for police salaries come from? The answer is, of course, nowhere, which is why cities like Oakland, Salinas, East Palo Alto, and Stockton—despite their substantial crime problems, pay less than do cities like San Jose, Santa Clara, and Sunnyvale. So, in order for your risk-based pay scale to work, the pay rates in all other police departments will have to be lowered—a solution you’ve already denied endorsing.
But there’s more. By your own take regarding the consequences of your solution, the more “rational” police applicants would opt to work for less money in one of the safer cities. If that’s the case, exactly what kind of “less rational” bunch are you expecting for the good people of Oakland, Salinas, East Palo Alto, and Stockton? Mercenaries? Hell’s Angels? Psychological washouts from other agencies?
If you want to know what police work looks like when a city hires the people best qualified to serve the community, take a look at San Jose PD, Santa Clara, PD, or Sunnyvale DPS. However, if you want to know what police work looks like when risk-taking is emphasized, take a look at how well Blackwater Worldwide has served the fine citizens of Baghdad.
#32, Frank, I’ve never been in a corporation where failure is rewarded. That’s a sure route to oblivion.
Where did I say that we should reduce the pay of SJPD officers? I stated that the lower risk environment in which they work should dictate a lower risk-based compensation than Oakland. Does that not make sense to you?
And yes, if the risk of being a police officer in SJ increased, then by all means, we should pay them more. We would have to, because rational applicants would prefer to work somewhere “safer” for less money! What a surprise. But we should also get rid of the officers that made our environment so.
Let me address your other points…
Other than banks, the corporations currently on “government welfare” are Chrysler and GM…two of the most heavily unionized corporations in the nation. What a surprise! Many banks are busy trying to figure out how to give back TARP money, because the strings attached are too onerous. Our government, on the other hand, is trying to to prevent that. Imagine that, not wanting your money back sooner, rather than later!
I agree that we have a good police department. They are able to deliver better than average crime statistics with above average staffing metrics. But we also have some great corporations (HP, Intel, Oracle, Cisco, Wells Fargo, etc)delivering above average results. Please provide statistics that prove your assertion that “our police department is vastly more successful than the private corporations you pledge blind obeisance to.”
The main issue is that private corporations are allowed to fail, governments are bailed out by…taxpayers. We’re getting tired of it.
Pat,
Your figures on divorce rates for Police Officers are incorrect. Divorce rates are between 60-80%.
In my post #25, I gave you plenty of links verifying the health problems Police Officers endure. I honestly had to laugh when I saw you equating the stress of professions like “dancers, bartenders, massage therapists, extruding machine operators, and telephone operators, among others (Dr. Michael Aamodt, Radford University),” to that of a Police Officer. Come on Pat that is just ridiculous.
I am still waiting for you to come up with an amount YOU think we should pay Police Officers. Give us a break down of what you think each kind of Officer should receive. I’d be very interested to see what price you’ll put on men and women, who by mere virtue of putting on that badge and uniform, put their lives at risk to some fool with a gun, or other weapon.
Pat Waite said, “And yes, if the risk of being a police officer in SJ increased, then by all means, we should pay them more. We would have to, because rational applicants would prefer to work somewhere “safer” for less money! What a surprise. But we should also get rid of the officers that made our environment so.”
We live in a City of 1 MILLION people. We presently have 1,356 Police Officers to serve us. Police dispatch receives almost 1 million Police assist calls per year. So you tell me, with a City that contains MORE criminals than Police Officers, and the State getting ready to release even more criminals from State prisons early, due to over crowding, what are the odds our small Police force will be equipped to keep us safe, without endangering their own lives?
As for the banks that received TAX PAYER bailouts, they are KEEPING that money from citizens. They won’t extend credit, (hence the reason car companies, etc. are going out of business.) they are bleeding credit card holders dry, and have given themselves some awesome raises and perks while cheating the American people. Frank is 100% correct, their greed knows no bounds, and there is little oversight or accountability to the very people who saved their sorry asses. These huge cooperation’s have wiped out small businesses one by one leaving us to their mercy. Well, it seems the tides a changing Pat. Hold on to your hat Pat cause the little guy is getting angry and starting to fight back~
#39, Kathleen, I guess you didn’t equate (jk) with (just kidding). I would never equate the job stress of sworn officers with those of dancers, bartenders, etc.
And I’m still waiting for the source of your divorce statistics…it wasn’t in any of the links you left in #25 (most of which went to articles on the same study out of Buffalo), unless I inadvertently overlooked it.
I think we’re basically in violent agreement…yes, police officers have stressful jobs; yes, they should be compensated appropriately to reflect that. It’s a question of what or who defines “appropriately.” That’s partly what we elect representatives to determine.
#38, Finfan, at least on a starting basis, Oakland officers are paid more than in San Jose, reflective of the need to attract officers to a “riskier” environment. I’m sure the officers in Oakland are as rational as those in San Jose…hence the higher starting salaries in Oakland.
Pat #29,
You stated, “Starting salary of over $70K for somebody with an associates degree is pretty significant.”
While this is the minimum school requirement for San Jose Officers the vast amount have way more schooling than that. Many have 4 year degrees, Master Degrees, and a few have Doctorate degrees. There are many officers at the department who followed a calling to be an officer and changed careers. There are officers who are engineers, lawyers, clergy, doctors, teachers, pilots, air traffic controllers, contractors, CPA’s, profession athletes, gourmet chefs, business owners and formmer high ranking corporate employees. There are former military officers who went to prestigious military schools and attained very high ranks in the military.
This braintrust of our very talented and bright officers is why our department has been able to get away with one of the lowest staffed police departments for its size in the United States, while keeping San Jose’s crime rate very low while crime in Oakland, Berkeley, San Francisco, Richmond etc is out of control.
Pat, being of the corporate world you surely realize that the higher the pay of a job opening attracts more quality and educated applicants. 70k may be a good salary for someone with an AA degree but would attract far fewer talented and educated applicants than SJPD gets now.
#40, Kathleen, the banks are “KEEPING” the money because the government has told them to increase their capital bases. That was the purpose of the “stress tests” that government did. And the only way to increase the capital base is to take in more funds than are being given out. It’s not possible to loan out 100% of the TARP money and increase the capital base simultaneously. Unless, of course, you go to the capital markets (which some banks are doing).
But people are somewhat reluctant to invest in banks because of the uncertainty over where the government is heading vis a vis bank regulations/nationalization/mortgage cramdowns/etc. Investors dislike such uncertainty.
What you imply about the corporate world also seems to be coming true in government & politics…“the little guy is getting angry and starting to fight back.”
http://www.reachingcops.com/OurBurden.html
http://www.police-dynamics.com/divorce.html
http://www.heavybadge.com/efstress.htm
http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/constant.html
http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/constant.html
Now it is your turn Pat, since you have avoided the question several times now. Put a salary and benefit number on what you think our Police Officers should earn, and STOP evading the question with more questions Pat.
#44- Pat,
So what is your point? Screwing and betraying the trust of taxpayers is okay because the big bad government is to blame for the reckless loan sharking of the poor innocent banks? Give me a break. You must fair very well in the world you live in Pat because you just honestly don’t get it at all.
#43, Frank, agreed!
Frank #43-
SJ gets away with low staffing because of the unusually good officers compared to Oakland and Berkeley?
No, SJ gets away with low staffing because it has fewer poor people.
Or should I heap praise on the excellent police officers of Atherton and Pebble Beach? I’m sure they have even lower violent crime rates.
beginner#35-
$200,000 includes pension and retirement medical. SJ has plenty of officers earnign 200K when you remember to include the gold plated retirement. (Not everyone gets to retire at 50 but keep their medical coverage and most of their salary)
Pat,
You crack me up. You ask for proof, you get it, but dismiss it because you don’t like what it says. All references given ARE based on studies. Many cite studies and survey’s done etc.
The book you are referring to sounds like yet another that says what you want to hear. If you have an open mind, and really want to get at the truth, rather then relying on one book, I suggest that since you don’t agree with the sources I’ve cited, that you venture past your book and research the topic a bit more.
And yes, divorce is sad no matter what profession you are in. We live in a society that seems to lack the true understanding of what love and commitment truly are. We live in a real throw a way society!
Glad to hear you don’t think Police Officers are over paid, and support their hard work. Public safety should never be looked upon as a budget item, but rather a priority that we need to have above all else.
#37 wrote:”#32, Frank, I’ve never been in a corporation where failure is rewarded. That’s a sure route to oblivion.”
So,we now know that you have never worked for Morgan Stanley, B of A, GM, or Chrysler… Back in the ‘60s when my wife worked for B of A, the mantra of the staff was f*ck up, move up. Yet it lasted for decades until the mortgage meltdown.
#45, Kathleen, none of your references cite any verifiable studies. I have provided verifiable information.
To my previous citations, I’ll add this from the book I Love a Cop, by Ellen Kirschman: “Statistics about divorce in police work are very hard to pin down and are inherently unreliable.” (page 5 of the introduction). She also notes that “[t]here are so many variables to be considered in studying divorce that it is simply unwise to infer a cause and effect relationship between police work and divorce on the basis of statistics alone.” I respect your opinion, but in this case I think I’ll go with Ms. Kirschman.
In addition, Kappeler, Blumberg and Potter, in The Mythology of Crime and Criminal Justice (Waveland Press, 2000), cite studies showing “police officers have a divorce rate that is no higher than the national average.” Saying the rate is higher doesn’t make it so.
It is sad when a marriage ends in divorce…whatever the occupation of the couple.
As for what our hard working officers should be paid, I’ve stated several times that I do not advocate cutting their pay. Based on that, one might infer that I believe they are getting paid what they are worth. They work hard, have stressful lives, and are fairly compensated for it.
“DeShawn Campbell found guilty of murdering San Jose Police Officer.”
http://www.mercurynews.com/topstories/ci_12459225
Finally! After 8 long years, there is justice in the world for this Officer and his family!
There were three people at the scene, and one of them is dead, and there were NINETY WITNESSES? How can that be?
A cop killer doesn’t go to trial for over eight years, while his family suffers. Criminals have all the rights, victims and their families apparently have none. The pendulum has swung WAY TOO FAR. More balance is needed.
“But the prosecution contended that Fontana may have tried to radio in the stop, but was hampered either by the existence of dead spots in Almaden Valley or by a simultaneous radio transmission by another officer. The radio system to this day can only receive one call at a time.”
2009 in the heart of (SJ officials would like you to believe, the capital) Silicon Valley, and our cops are hampered by a system that can take only one call at a time!!?? Dead spots, where cops are out of contact???!!! It’s a wonder more cops aren’t killed here.
I agree with #51. I worked at Ford Motor Company from 1937 to 1986. I was promoted to senior vice president after a lot of people were killed in the Ford Pinto which I designed.
#52 Kathleen,
Thanks for providing this link. Justice has finally been served and I hope the Fontana family finds some comfort in this. I can’t imagine the unfathomable grief they will have to endure every day for the rest of their lives at the loss of their son.
Anon,
Not everybody in public safety retires out at 50 either. The average employee is hired late in life (late 20’s early 30’s) after 30 years to get the full pension they are late 50’s or mid 60’s.
Your still incorrect about pension payout. Yes, there are a few folks who make above 200k per year but the majority don’t.
Go to a retirement meeting before throwing out judgement. They are open to the public. You’ll see first hand all the broken cops and firemen after 30 years of chasing suspects and running into burning buildings.
And don’t forget, gold plated cops and firemen are not part of the POA and SJFF. They are management and as such negotiate differently than the run of the mill cop or fireman. If you got a gripe about the gold played pay, go tell Debra. Those are her employees.
#49 Anon,
Where do you get your information San Jose has less poor people than other cities?
One of the big reasons we have a low crime rate is because there are no ultra concentrations of poverty like you find in the tenements of Oakland and San Francisco which destroys neighborhoods and attracts criminals. Historically, whenever such an area has started to develop in San Jose and criminal activites started to spike within that area the police department stepped up enforcement and aggressively nipped problems in the bud. The police department, despite what the Mercury would have you believe, has emphasized community policing and developed a trust within these areas to the point where people aren’t afraid to report crime or call code enforcement. Also, the police department has always had the backing of the city council and mayor, whereas in Oakland the officers are hated by most of their own city leaders. This became obvious when one of the Officers slain in Oakland had specifically put in his will that if he got killed in the line of duty he did not want Oakland’s Mayor, Ron Dellums, to give any type of eulogy at his funeral. Oakland has great cops but ask them why crime is rampant in their city and they will tell you of areas allowed to fester with criminals and the city council and mayor not allowing aggressive enforcement. The vicious cycle repeats and and propagates, attracting more poverty and criminals and causing property values to collapse. I know Oakland cops and they have told me as such. We are all very ignorant if we fool ourselves into believing this could never happen in San Jose.
San Jose has historically gone down a different road than these other cities due to, in part, the support of the police department, aggressive policing in problem areas, and good utilization of limited resources. Oakland could have done this to but something went terribly astray in their decision making process. If anything, Oakland should have been vastly more successful than San Jose being a port city and proximity to one of the most beautiful areas in the world.
From the US Census.
I don’t think the police department has prevented pockets of poverty. Police can keep those areas from being crime ridden, but police can’t keep people from being poor.
I agree with you about Dellums, though. Complete disaster.
3% at 50 doesn’t help Oakland, though. Senior officers retired earlier. Expenses went up, which made it harder to hire enough officers to do the job. The net result of 3% at 50 is that Oakland has fewer officers, which is the last thing Oakland needs.
(Not that Dellums would hire them if he had the money. But Jerry Brown would have. And De La Fuente or Perata will if they are elected.)
#54—that must have been before you downsized, eh?
#56 wrote:“The average employee is hired late in life (late 20’s early 30’s).” LATE IN LIFE, late twenties?? And here they’ve been telling me that 60 is the new 40.
OH, GREAT!! a 31-year-old who barely shaves is in charge of restrucuring GM. Thanks, Obama! From Yahoo:
It is not every 31-year-old who, in a first government job, finds himself dismantling General Motors and rewriting the rules of American capitalism.
But that, in short, is the job description for Brian Deese, a not-quite graduate of Yale Law School who had never set foot in an automotive assembly plant until he took on his nearly unseen role in remaking the American automotive industry.
More from NYTimes.com:
• After Many Stumbles, Fall of GM
• Obama Makes a Risky Bet to Save an American Icon
• Cracking the Code as Tax Changes Loom
Nor, for that matter, had he given much thought to what ailed an industry that had been in decline ever since he was born. A bit laconic and looking every bit the just-out-of-graduate-school student adjusting to life in the West Wing — “he’s got this beard that appears and disappears,” says Steven Rattner, one of the leaders of President Obama’s automotive task force — Mr. Deese was thrown into the auto industry’s maelstrom as soon the election-night parties ended.
Stephen Crowley/The New York Times
“There was a time between Nov. 4 and mid-February when I was the only full-time member of the auto task force,” Mr. Deese, a special assistant to the president for economic policy, acknowledged recently as he hurried between his desk at the White House and the Treasury building next door. “It was a little scary.”
But now, according to those who joined him in the middle of his crash course about the automakers’ downward spiral, he has emerged as one of the most influential voices in what may become President Obama’s biggest experiment yet in federal economic intervention.
While far more prominent members of the administration are making the big decisions about Detroit, it is Mr. Deese who is often narrowing their options.
A month ago, when the administration was divided over whether to support Fiat’s bid to take over much of Chrysler, it was Mr. Deese who spoke out strongly against simply letting the company go into liquidation, according to several people who were present for the debate.