In collaboration with victim’s rights advocates, community leaders, the POA, and members of the community, we will be holding a Neighborhood Safety and Candle Lit Vigil to protest cuts to public safety, and to honor and remember victims who have lost their lives to violent crime, and gangs. Please bring your family, friends, your neighbors, a chair, and a photo of a lost loved one, as well as a candle or glow stick.
When:
Tuesday, June 9th
Time:
Speakers begin at 7:00 P.M. Candle Lit Vigil and blessing begins at 7:30 P.M.
Where:
City Hall, 200 East Santa Clara Street, San Jose, in front of the Rotunda.
Please join us in an effort to send a strong message to our Mayor and Council that public safety must be their number one priority, and to let criminals in our communities know that we had enough and that we are taking our neighborhoods back!
I know this is mostly preaching to the choir here, but this issue is starting to make me very angry the more Washington wavers.
TORTURE IS WRONG and we need to be a nation that does not torture. There are no doomsday scenarios that could conceivably justify the horrible fact that torture steers entire nations towards making the world a worse place for human rights.
At this point, with so much information available to so many in Government about our torture record for the last decade, the only real way to recover is to hold ourselves and former leaders responsible for war crimes, own up to our mistakes, and never make them again. Anything less is to become the ‘bad guys’ and a beacon of hypocrisy, rather than a beacon of hope and democracy.
How, honestly, can we ever hold another country responsible for Human Rights abuses? We cannot until we hold ourselves responsible. Every day we hold out, we are visible evidence to a hundred non-democratic governments that “Torture is OK—even the U.S. does it.”
As Mr Hoven writes:
Try this multiple-choice question:
A global network of highly zealous and violent men have declared war on the US via fatwa and conducted multiple attacks on American interests resulting in dozens of dead Americans, culminating in a highly coordinated attack on New York City and Washington, DC, that killed 3,000. They seek WMD. What should the President do?
(a) Everything possible.
(b) Everything possible within the constraints of the law and the Constitution, perhaps even testing those limits in court.
(c) Little more than his predecessor, treating global terrorism as any other criminal activity and going nowhere near constitutional limits.
(d) Whatever the ACLU requests.
President Bush chose (b). I agree with that choice and think any reasonable person would. It was not a “false” choice.
If you think Bush chose (a), please tell us where he exceeded his constitutional authority. And please, be specific. Credible claims have already been investigated and some have gone to court. In most cases, the courts upheld the President’s position. In those few where they did not, procedures were changed to conform to court rulings.
What I am responding to: being called an idiot, and a request to show that the former President exceeded his Constitutional authority.
I’ll start by credentialling my idiocy. I was a cadet instructor in one of the US Air Force’s two SERE programs. I play-acted an aggressor who has captured officer candidates, subjected them to various stresses, interrogation methods, and indoctrination procedures, then showed them ways to passively and actively resist these methods. Part of this training involved demonstrating to them which ones SPECIFICALLY were and were not permitted according to the Geneva Conventions.
Note: I am in no way implying by this credential that I am qualified to discuss this topic more than anyone else. This is an issue of American values, so EVERYONE is qualified to discuss it and bring their opinions. We are, after all, a democracy—and a morally material different society than most of those whom we currently name adversaries.
The issue at hand has little to do with Constitutionality. When I say that we need to hold ourselves accountable, it is to the Geneva Conventions and other national treaties to which we are signatory. We waterboarded, and we admitted to waterboarding. I’ll save you the lengthy argument that waterboarding is a violation of ‘Humane Treatment of prisoners’—but I know every word of the Third Geneva Convention by heart and I assure you the United States is violating the letter and spirit of it.
I don’t claim the last administration acted in violation of the Consitution. I claim it acted in violation of International Treaty. And believe it or not, I don’t necessarily hold anyone at the top responsible—that is a legal exercise for someone else. Whoever found it the waterboarding activity within the legal boundaries of military activity should be held responsible – at whatever level they operate.
That is a fascinating article you linked to in the American Thinker. It strengthens my resolve that setting bad precedents will have long-term consequences. The article higlights multiple instances of internment and nuclear weapons usage on civilians that have been justified in the past, made by men who knew that history would judge them.
Well, then think of me as history; I am judging them.
I think that when it comes to torture some may have a distorted view of those of us who, for lack of a better term are “pro-torture”… we are not a bunch of sadist loons, with our cheerleading outfits on pom poms raised hooting “torture!- torture!” at least not me.
I think some of us recognize that it is a complex world with complex and tough decisions, and some of those choices are a bit unpleasant. The goal is to keep America safe, and if the road to safety at all costs is to waterboard, well then so be it.
And yes we do need to look the other way, things like this in my opinion simply do not need to be a part of the armchair quarterback crowd… this should be behind closed doors, the general public need not know.
That being said, I also believe that the anti-torture crowd leaves out certain elements in the discussion, meaning what I call residual fact finding. Let’s say you use EIT on an individual today and he claims that he assassinated JFK years ago… obviously that is not true, he is only saying what he is saying to get ut of the hole he is in… but what if he says that he was part of something more sinister, like blowing up a bridge in the USA?
Don’t you think that we would investigate to corroborate the statement, or do we have this idea that all these statements are taken as just fact on the surface by a bunch of cloaked CIA henchmen?
My point is that none of these interrogations happens in a vacuum, ten guys interrogated separately, telling lies intermingled with slivers of truth, there will be a web that can be followed via intelligence gathering leading to some real truth..
Hugh,
Calling Kenny an idiot is uncalled for. You never asked him how he feels about how our military should go about handling terrorists, you just bashed him for objecting to torture. Next time, you might ask first.
I can’t speak for Kenny, but I don’t think terrorists need to coddled either, but to torture someone the way we have is just inexcusable. We can’t chide China and other countries for their lack of human decency if we are doing the same types of things to others. That would be hypocritical of us to say the least. Nor can we punish terrorist in the same inhuman way they would us, and claim to be a civilized nation. It just doesn’t work that way.
If you’ll re-read my original post, I didn’t call Kenny an idiot. I did, however, refer to his post as “Kenny’s idiocy.” That is a comment on the statement, not the individual. There’s a difference. If you can’t even get something as basic as this correct, how can you figure out if waterboarding is torture or if the jihadis deserve it.
I’ll add that if you comandeer an airliner, kill the crew and fly it into a building killing thousands on innocents you deserve what you get.
The city fathers and managers are foregoing raises, as are non-union folks. Union folks are being asked to do the same. Our roads suck. Library hours are being cuty willy-nilly. BUT, Mesa development, developer of 360 residences, is gettinga $2million foregiveness from the RDA. Why are the taxpayers being asked to shoulder the loss by a private development company? This is insane.
#13-Hugh,
You say tomato I say tomatoe, what is the difference? Any kind of name-calling, or reference to idiocy is unnecessary. And if you can’t understand that Hugh, then how can you get the difference between human decency, and cruelty?
Kenny never endorsed any thing near excusing the behavior of these terrorists. He talked about the hypocrisy and unnecessary use of torture. You on the other hand seem fine with torture, water boarding and all. You have a right to that view Hugh, but you also need to respect a different view without being nasty about it.
You and Kenny said I called him an idiot. I did not. I referred to his post as “idiocy” which is a comment on what he wrote, not who he is. It’s different, no matter how you might want to blur the distinction. What set me off was Kenny’s statement that “There are no doomsday scenarios that could conceivably justify the horrible fact that torture steers entire nations towards making the world a worse place for human rights.” Obviously, Kenny didn’t know anyone in the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.
It’s easy to sit in your comfy chair and pontificate, let’s see what happens when Iran gets their nukes.
I, for one, wouldn’t be inclined to buy an $800,000 2bd/2ba condo that overlooks Wet. However SJPD could, it would make a good stake-house to watch those pesky stabbings…
“I’ll add that if you comandeer an airliner, kill the crew and fly it into a building killing thousands on innocents you deserve what you get.”
Yes, well, who that we have tortured commandeered and flew the airliners into buildings? They were dead. In fact, most of the prisoners who were tortured had nothing to do with masterminding 9/11. But our government was trying to pull confessions out of them to justify our country’s actions in Iraq. That’s reprehensible in my book. And of course, many experts (I would venture to say most) suggest that torture not only doesn’t lead to information – it results in false confessions. And it endangers our troops by justifying their torture if they are captured on the battlefield. How again does torture make us safe? I know one thing – torture makes us less civilized.
#19—not one additional condo will be sold because the RDA forgives the $2million debt. A buyer cares about the price. Does anyone really think Mesa will divide $2million by the number of units unsold (all of them) and reducde all their prices accordingly? Even if they do, they’ll still be way over market; just like Axis & The 88 remain way over market.
The plain fact is that this RDA deal means we are subsidizing a private development that just came on line at the wrong time. That’s the risk you take in a capitalist world. Sometimes, when the sh*t hits the fan, you just need to suck it up, take your loss, and move on.
But with the RDA desperately trying for 25+ years now to make DT SJ something, they keep going back to the giveaways to continue to justify their existence. That increment tax money could be better spent elsewhere.
Dismantle the RDA. Every deal they make is a bad one, then they give away more still at a later time.
To all of you who so desperately want to self-flagellate America for trying to cope with the jihadist threat, what do you think we did that was so bad. As the article I cited above points out:
“Concerning Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and waterboarding:”
“Abuses at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo did not result from directives from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld or any other high authority. They were investigated, the guilty punished, and reformed procedures installed. The ‘flushed Koran’ story was not even true.
Waterboarding was conducted on three men not long after 9/11, all of whom had time-critical information that could save thousands of lives. It was not attempted until all other techniques failed. The technique, never outlawed by Congress, was vetted by multiple attorneys, briefed up the chain of command and briefed to legislators, including Nancy Pelosi, before being used.
The waterboarding procedures were carefully c
alibrated (so many ounces per pour, so many pours per minute, so much time between pours, so many times a day, etc.), and conducted under the watch of both a physician and a psychologist, in order to prevent crossing the line into ‘torture.’”
“‘Our values’ were indeed upheld. The Constitution was followed. The law was followed. When violations were discovered, there was investigation, trial and sentencing. Accusations to the contrary do not constitute proof, no matter how often repeated.”
If you want to define torture as what the jihadists did to Daniel Pearl, then yes it’s torture and no, we shouldn’t do it. However, what the American left is whining about was necessary and even the current speaker of the house didn’t object.
23 – You can jump up and down and stomp your feet all you want, but that doesn’t make what was done right. You aren’t going to change your mind and those who believe this was torture and has hurt America aren’t going to change their minds.
The attempted justification that you site is laughable—“…procedures were carefully calibrated…” That’s the best you can do? Then to say it was only used on three men but leave out that it was done to them multiple times.
You can justify torture all you want and ignore the boost in terrorist recruiting as a result, but I will stand by the America I used to know and hope that it one day returns—torture free.
The Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority (VTA) will vote on its Fiscal Year 2010-2011 budget at its next Board of Directors meeting Thrusday evening in San Jose. The agency is facing a $21 million deficit for the 2010 fiscal year.
Part of the proposed budget includes a fare increase as well as paratransit service reductions. This is on top of the service reductions that will take place later in June. The fare increase, if approved, would take effect January 1, 2010. Details on the fare increase proposal are in page 2 of our group’s newsletter…
At the May 7 VTA Board of Directors meeting, it was suggested that stipends for attending Board meetings be sacrificed. It was to be proposed as a sign of “shared sacrifice” to indicate that VTA management is willing to make some sacrifices of its own. A Palo Alto Daily Post story on May 12 revealed that 185 workers make over $100,000 a year – about 8% of its workforce. This includes 20 mechanics, 37 supervisors, and 21 bus drivers. The story also revealed that VTA has a “Client Relationship Supervisor” making over $107,000 a year – including over $47,000 in overtime. The story also mentioned that VTA has a “Document Management Supervisor” making over $102,000 a year – including nearly $14,000 in unpaid vacation time.
WHAT IS THE ISSUE?
VTA will vote on its budget proposal featuring a fare increase at its next Board meeting June 4.
WHERE AND WHEN IS THE BOARD MEETING?
June 4 at 5:30pm at the County Supervisors’ Chambers, 70 W. Hedding Street in San Jose. Get there on the 61, 62, 66, 180, and 181 express buses, or by light rail at the Civic Center station.
I note from reading the paper and listening to the news that the various shootings and stabbings over the weekend @ Shoreline, in the East Side, and Cambrian were perpetrated by a “disproportionate” number of Hispanics in relation to their percentage of the population. In fact, all of them were. Raj & Weeby—is this more evidence of racial profiling by the cops?
#21, Hi JMO,
If you can’t sell them turn them into a “youth hostel” so young budget minded international travelers have a affordable place to stay in Silicon Valley.
A large hostel will surely increase tourism, a subject that is not being discussed on this board. Here in Santa Cruz tourism is our largest industry (after UCSC).
Tourism keeps many restaurants, museums, entertainment places open and populates downtown at night with other than homeless, street people and ruffians.
A good lawyer like you could draw up the right papers to establish a succesful San Jose Hostel.
Otherwise (when I get lucky)we’ll open a first class hostel (sponsored by a marketing partner such as Apple, HP, Intel, Google, Adobe, etc) in Santa Clara, or Mtn. View, Sunnyvale, Campbell or PA. Those cities will get the TOT tax money, not SJ.
Hoping to open a large urban hostel (250 beds will soon be much too small) when the world’s geekiest, nerdiest hostel opens with the latest gizmos such as 3d movies, hottest video games, RFID, i-phones, etc., that every PC addict around the world will want to visit. In fact they’ll book a flight direct into SJC instead of SFO.
Yeah, I’m a 1trick, but perhaps some other blogger besides you will see this post and finally have some vision of a large hostel improving SJ “town”. You surely can’t consider SJ “world class” without international tourists arriving here?
I just can’t believe that as a supposed former hosteller you aren’t supporting a SJ hostel. Are you in cahoots with TMcE and luxury hotel interests who mistakenly believe a great hostel will take away business from the Fairymount or DeNanca?
Next time I’ll suggest a great spot for a SJ Hostel. Maybe we could add a mid-size year round waterpark, open to all, that’ll liven up the forlorn area near..
Now Barack Obama is President, I was just getting used to Dwight David Eisenhower. Time goes by quickly. Who were those other people in the White House between Eisenhower and Obama? Did they accomplish anything?
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Just remember, you saw it here on SJI first! Tell a friend!;-)
I watched today’s Council meeting, 9/2/09. I thought I’d give you a head’s up, since I know Raj and the media will have a very different take on what actually was written, and done. Read and listen to the below links for yourself.
During the Open Forum section, Raj and his followers were demanding the Mayor and Council censure the SJPOA for having an opinion on Raj’s behavior toward the Police. Raj claims he fears for the safety and the wellbeing of DeBugged members because of the article and Youtube above.
Funny, I don’t see Raj’s name mentioned in the article by its author, nor do I see anything other than Raj’s OWN words being spoken! So, what is the BIG deal?
To get the full scope of what happened today, go to the City’s website and watch the Open Forum for this afternoon’s Council session for yourself. Enjoy!
And: You have never been censored here. I monitor this discussion as closely as I can and generally post comments as soon as I get a chance. In this case, I was preparing to post the piece linked above so I held onto your post for an hour or so.
30 – Geez, are we getting a little paranoid?? Why would you be censored? Everyone already knows what you are going to say anyway— you love the police, Raj sucks, the Merc is biased, etc. You say it over and over.
Perhaps, just perhaps, you should listen just a little to what others are saying. People can appreciate the job the police department does but they can still be critical, if necessary. Everyone wants a professional department and a safe community. If it gets to the point that we can’t criticize things that may be wrong, then whom is censoring whom?
Anyway, I’m not a police fanatic either way so you don’t have to attack me as anti-police. I don’t really even have dog in this hunt other than, like everyone else, wanting a good police department that responds to community needs. That doesn’t mean changing their practices because of a few bad citizens or a few bad cops. Keep a dialog open.
Humm seeing like san jose autorities rent tha capitol expressway and monterrey road to a homless.i did report the criminakl activities to a mayor reed and city manager.they did nothing,nada,cero
PGP3 #26 wrote:“A large hostel will surely increase tourism..” Yeah, tourists who’ll nurse one cappuccino or one beer for hours. We need tourists who spend, PGP. Low budget options should be available for those on a low budget, like students; but don’t try to use an economic argument to justify a hostel, dude.
George #27—ask Monica L, George. She and Slick Willy gave every HS boy justification for some “it’s not sex” in the car.
Kathleen # 29: It’s September already? Where DID the summer go?
#35 JMO,
For a lawyer you make many assumptions!
I go through our SC hostel’s trash every Sunday for recyclables. Yes there are usually a few Starbucks cups, but also GAP and other upscale packaging material (new surfboards don’t get wrapped).
Few guests use our well equipped kitchen in the evening, most just have breakfast. I presume they eat out on the Wharf and on Pacific. Some return a bit tipsy, indicating more than one beer consumption; guess not all nurse cappuccinos. The Poet&Patriot; is a popular downtown Irish pub. Quite a few arrive in rental cars, a fair number in Lexus, Bmers and Pontiacs, recently an H3 rental. Some in ‘78 Chevys, but those are usually US. Our bicycle shed houses multi-$K bikes.
You are a fool if you associate hostels with income level or spending habits; we have all kinds staying at our hostel, our private rooms are filled with Bay area couples, often professionals, many return regularly. Recently met a heart surgeon from Davis at the Monterey Hostel who introduced some friends to hostelling, they all stayed in dorms. Most all of our European guests attended universities.
Most overseas travelers are used to hostels, prefer the social camaraderie of the place and like knowing the price beforehand.
We also have many groups staying with us. Last night had a SF high school group celebrating their upcoming graduation. An English group comes every year, same teachers, new students.
What makes you think that guests at fancy hotels in San Jose spend more? Their hotel vacancy rate is a lot higher than ours; even now we turn away many for lack of beds. We can’t send the overflow to San Jose since you don’t even have a single hostel (lousy for a supposed “World Class City”). Since Monterey Hostel and Pigeon Point are normally full, their only choice are dozens of SF hostels, many of them 24/7 operations that will gladly accommodate them.
Would be good to inform yourself on subjects that you obviously know nothing about!
You make me laugh, big spenders in San Jose? That’s how it used to be, but now most upscale hotel rooms are along 101 in Sunnyvale, Mtn. View, PA, Menlo Park, and bordering SFO. After all most hi-tech businesses are north of SJC, why would anyone stay south of the airport to fight traffic, SJ is just fill-in. The only time the Fairymount and DeCanca fill up are at convention time. With wi-fi and conference cameras (and tight budgets) the large conferences are disappearing. The Gamers had to move to SF because McEConv. Center and SC Conv. Ctr together weren’t big enough.
San Jose is now just “Middle Class”; the big shots all live up in the hills or Hillsb.-Atherton.
What’s wrong with converting one of the multitude of vacant SJ buildings (you got millions empty sq.ft) into a non-profit first-rate hostel? What’s the downside? Couldn’t SJ use additional TOT tax $$?
Your negative logic escapes me! Your lack of vision is disappointing!
pgp3 is a 1trickdude.
This is unacceptable. Where’s Nancy when you really need her?
Oh, wait, there’s no political gain from milking a GAO report titled “SECLUSIONS AND RESTRAINTS: Selected Cases of Death and Abuse at Public and Private Schools and Treatment Centers”
When the report came out on May 19, we figured it would be a good opportunity to find common ground with politicians and commentators who’ve been complaining for years about the “torture” of terrorists. We figured President Obama would issue an executive order banning torture in schools, the New York Times would publish an indignant editorial, Dick Durbin would take to the Senate floor to declare that the teachers unions remind him of the Gestapo, and that nut who writes for The Atlantic would proclaim himself “shocked to the core.”
We were going to respond by saying that although we think there are circumstances under which it is justifiable to treat terrorists roughly, all good people can agree that torturing schoolchildren is categorically wrong. But we didn’t have anything to respond to. As far as we are aware, the GAO’s findings have been greeted with silence by the leading self-proclaimed “torture” opponents—though Education Secretary Arne Duncan did tepidly promise “he will ask state school chiefs around the country about the use of restraints and confinement of pupils in the classroom,” according to the Associated Press.
Where’s the outrage? Could it be that all the complaining about “torture” was but a pretext for some less noble agenda?
I don’t know about the rest of you people but I miss “SINGLE GAL” She must still read this blogsite, so please SG tell us how you are doing.
Neighborhood Safety and Candle Lit Vigil!
In collaboration with victim’s rights advocates, community leaders, the POA, and members of the community, we will be holding a Neighborhood Safety and Candle Lit Vigil to protest cuts to public safety, and to honor and remember victims who have lost their lives to violent crime, and gangs. Please bring your family, friends, your neighbors, a chair, and a photo of a lost loved one, as well as a candle or glow stick.
When:
Tuesday, June 9th
Time:
Speakers begin at 7:00 P.M. Candle Lit Vigil and blessing begins at 7:30 P.M.
Where:
City Hall, 200 East Santa Clara Street, San Jose, in front of the Rotunda.
Please join us in an effort to send a strong message to our Mayor and Council that public safety must be their number one priority, and to let criminals in our communities know that we had enough and that we are taking our neighborhoods back!
Thank you and I hope we see you there!
#3. Kenny,
And this has what to do with San Jose politics? Read the banner at the top please.
I know this is mostly preaching to the choir here, but this issue is starting to make me very angry the more Washington wavers.
TORTURE IS WRONG and we need to be a nation that does not torture. There are no doomsday scenarios that could conceivably justify the horrible fact that torture steers entire nations towards making the world a worse place for human rights.
At this point, with so much information available to so many in Government about our torture record for the last decade, the only real way to recover is to hold ourselves and former leaders responsible for war crimes, own up to our mistakes, and never make them again. Anything less is to become the ‘bad guys’ and a beacon of hypocrisy, rather than a beacon of hope and democracy.
How, honestly, can we ever hold another country responsible for Human Rights abuses? We cannot until we hold ourselves responsible. Every day we hold out, we are visible evidence to a hundred non-democratic governments that “Torture is OK—even the U.S. does it.”
#3-Kenny,
Amen to that. Well said.
I personally don’t have any problem with water boarding the master mind of 911. Maybe that’s horrible of me but that’s the way I feel.
Obviously Kenny has forgotton that almost 3000 people were tortuered and murdered on September 11, 2001. Here’s an example:
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/gallery/5.htm
So if you’re going to go after people who torture innocents, let’s start with the terrorists. I, for one, don’t want to see another 9/11.
Rather than refute Kenny’s idiocy, I’ll direct people to a much more reasoned article:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/our_values_and_terrorist_incen.html
As Mr Hoven writes:
Try this multiple-choice question:
A global network of highly zealous and violent men have declared war on the US via fatwa and conducted multiple attacks on American interests resulting in dozens of dead Americans, culminating in a highly coordinated attack on New York City and Washington, DC, that killed 3,000. They seek WMD. What should the President do?
(a) Everything possible.
(b) Everything possible within the constraints of the law and the Constitution, perhaps even testing those limits in court.
(c) Little more than his predecessor, treating global terrorism as any other criminal activity and going nowhere near constitutional limits.
(d) Whatever the ACLU requests.
President Bush chose (b). I agree with that choice and think any reasonable person would. It was not a “false” choice.
If you think Bush chose (a), please tell us where he exceeded his constitutional authority. And please, be specific. Credible claims have already been investigated and some have gone to court. In most cases, the courts upheld the President’s position. In those few where they did not, procedures were changed to conform to court rulings.
What I am responding to: being called an idiot, and a request to show that the former President exceeded his Constitutional authority.
I’ll start by credentialling my idiocy. I was a cadet instructor in one of the US Air Force’s two SERE programs. I play-acted an aggressor who has captured officer candidates, subjected them to various stresses, interrogation methods, and indoctrination procedures, then showed them ways to passively and actively resist these methods. Part of this training involved demonstrating to them which ones SPECIFICALLY were and were not permitted according to the Geneva Conventions.
Note: I am in no way implying by this credential that I am qualified to discuss this topic more than anyone else. This is an issue of American values, so EVERYONE is qualified to discuss it and bring their opinions. We are, after all, a democracy—and a morally material different society than most of those whom we currently name adversaries.
The issue at hand has little to do with Constitutionality. When I say that we need to hold ourselves accountable, it is to the Geneva Conventions and other national treaties to which we are signatory. We waterboarded, and we admitted to waterboarding. I’ll save you the lengthy argument that waterboarding is a violation of ‘Humane Treatment of prisoners’—but I know every word of the Third Geneva Convention by heart and I assure you the United States is violating the letter and spirit of it.
I don’t claim the last administration acted in violation of the Consitution. I claim it acted in violation of International Treaty. And believe it or not, I don’t necessarily hold anyone at the top responsible—that is a legal exercise for someone else. Whoever found it the waterboarding activity within the legal boundaries of military activity should be held responsible – at whatever level they operate.
That is a fascinating article you linked to in the American Thinker. It strengthens my resolve that setting bad precedents will have long-term consequences. The article higlights multiple instances of internment and nuclear weapons usage on civilians that have been justified in the past, made by men who knew that history would judge them.
Well, then think of me as history; I am judging them.
I think that when it comes to torture some may have a distorted view of those of us who, for lack of a better term are “pro-torture”… we are not a bunch of sadist loons, with our cheerleading outfits on pom poms raised hooting “torture!- torture!” at least not me.
I think some of us recognize that it is a complex world with complex and tough decisions, and some of those choices are a bit unpleasant. The goal is to keep America safe, and if the road to safety at all costs is to waterboard, well then so be it.
And yes we do need to look the other way, things like this in my opinion simply do not need to be a part of the armchair quarterback crowd… this should be behind closed doors, the general public need not know.
That being said, I also believe that the anti-torture crowd leaves out certain elements in the discussion, meaning what I call residual fact finding. Let’s say you use EIT on an individual today and he claims that he assassinated JFK years ago… obviously that is not true, he is only saying what he is saying to get ut of the hole he is in… but what if he says that he was part of something more sinister, like blowing up a bridge in the USA?
Don’t you think that we would investigate to corroborate the statement, or do we have this idea that all these statements are taken as just fact on the surface by a bunch of cloaked CIA henchmen?
My point is that none of these interrogations happens in a vacuum, ten guys interrogated separately, telling lies intermingled with slivers of truth, there will be a web that can be followed via intelligence gathering leading to some real truth..
were there is smoke, you know the rest…
Hugh,
Calling Kenny an idiot is uncalled for. You never asked him how he feels about how our military should go about handling terrorists, you just bashed him for objecting to torture. Next time, you might ask first.
I can’t speak for Kenny, but I don’t think terrorists need to coddled either, but to torture someone the way we have is just inexcusable. We can’t chide China and other countries for their lack of human decency if we are doing the same types of things to others. That would be hypocritical of us to say the least. Nor can we punish terrorist in the same inhuman way they would us, and claim to be a civilized nation. It just doesn’t work that way.
Just another fun weekend in San Jose.
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_12490749?nclick_check=1
Another reason to come to the Neighborhood Safety and Candle Lit Vigil, June 9th, at 7 pm, at City Hall in front of the Rotunda.
If you’ll re-read my original post, I didn’t call Kenny an idiot. I did, however, refer to his post as “Kenny’s idiocy.” That is a comment on the statement, not the individual. There’s a difference. If you can’t even get something as basic as this correct, how can you figure out if waterboarding is torture or if the jihadis deserve it.
I’ll add that if you comandeer an airliner, kill the crew and fly it into a building killing thousands on innocents you deserve what you get.
#12—couldn’t open your link.
The city fathers and managers are foregoing raises, as are non-union folks. Union folks are being asked to do the same. Our roads suck. Library hours are being cuty willy-nilly. BUT, Mesa development, developer of 360 residences, is gettinga $2million foregiveness from the RDA. Why are the taxpayers being asked to shoulder the loss by a private development company? This is insane.
#13
I’ll add that if you comandeer an airliner, kill the crew and fly it into a building killing thousands on innocents you deserve what you get.
Instant death, but after that you get 70 virgins. Or so they say.
#13-Hugh,
You say tomato I say tomatoe, what is the difference? Any kind of name-calling, or reference to idiocy is unnecessary. And if you can’t understand that Hugh, then how can you get the difference between human decency, and cruelty?
Kenny never endorsed any thing near excusing the behavior of these terrorists. He talked about the hypocrisy and unnecessary use of torture. You on the other hand seem fine with torture, water boarding and all. You have a right to that view Hugh, but you also need to respect a different view without being nasty about it.
Kathleen asks “what is the difference?”
I’ll explain it again.
You and Kenny said I called him an idiot. I did not. I referred to his post as “idiocy” which is a comment on what he wrote, not who he is. It’s different, no matter how you might want to blur the distinction. What set me off was Kenny’s statement that “There are no doomsday scenarios that could conceivably justify the horrible fact that torture steers entire nations towards making the world a worse place for human rights.” Obviously, Kenny didn’t know anyone in the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.
It’s easy to sit in your comfy chair and pontificate, let’s see what happens when Iran gets their nukes.
JMO’C – to answer your question:
To sell condos
—-
I, for one, wouldn’t be inclined to buy an $800,000 2bd/2ba condo that overlooks Wet. However SJPD could, it would make a good stake-house to watch those pesky stabbings…
(Thank you for keeping this SJ-relevant, BTW)
#13
“I’ll add that if you comandeer an airliner, kill the crew and fly it into a building killing thousands on innocents you deserve what you get.”
Yes, well, who that we have tortured commandeered and flew the airliners into buildings? They were dead. In fact, most of the prisoners who were tortured had nothing to do with masterminding 9/11. But our government was trying to pull confessions out of them to justify our country’s actions in Iraq. That’s reprehensible in my book. And of course, many experts (I would venture to say most) suggest that torture not only doesn’t lead to information – it results in false confessions. And it endangers our troops by justifying their torture if they are captured on the battlefield. How again does torture make us safe? I know one thing – torture makes us less civilized.
#19—not one additional condo will be sold because the RDA forgives the $2million debt. A buyer cares about the price. Does anyone really think Mesa will divide $2million by the number of units unsold (all of them) and reducde all their prices accordingly? Even if they do, they’ll still be way over market; just like Axis & The 88 remain way over market.
The plain fact is that this RDA deal means we are subsidizing a private development that just came on line at the wrong time. That’s the risk you take in a capitalist world. Sometimes, when the sh*t hits the fan, you just need to suck it up, take your loss, and move on.
But with the RDA desperately trying for 25+ years now to make DT SJ something, they keep going back to the giveaways to continue to justify their existence. That increment tax money could be better spent elsewhere.
Dismantle the RDA. Every deal they make is a bad one, then they give away more still at a later time.
20—tell that to the family of the guy they beheaded on You Tube.
To all of you who so desperately want to self-flagellate America for trying to cope with the jihadist threat, what do you think we did that was so bad. As the article I cited above points out:
“Concerning Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and waterboarding:”
“Abuses at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo did not result from directives from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld or any other high authority. They were investigated, the guilty punished, and reformed procedures installed. The ‘flushed Koran’ story was not even true.
Waterboarding was conducted on three men not long after 9/11, all of whom had time-critical information that could save thousands of lives. It was not attempted until all other techniques failed. The technique, never outlawed by Congress, was vetted by multiple attorneys, briefed up the chain of command and briefed to legislators, including Nancy Pelosi, before being used.
The waterboarding procedures were carefully c
alibrated (so many ounces per pour, so many pours per minute, so much time between pours, so many times a day, etc.), and conducted under the watch of both a physician and a psychologist, in order to prevent crossing the line into ‘torture.’”
“‘Our values’ were indeed upheld. The Constitution was followed. The law was followed. When violations were discovered, there was investigation, trial and sentencing. Accusations to the contrary do not constitute proof, no matter how often repeated.”
If you want to define torture as what the jihadists did to Daniel Pearl, then yes it’s torture and no, we shouldn’t do it. However, what the American left is whining about was necessary and even the current speaker of the house didn’t object.
23 – You can jump up and down and stomp your feet all you want, but that doesn’t make what was done right. You aren’t going to change your mind and those who believe this was torture and has hurt America aren’t going to change their minds.
The attempted justification that you site is laughable—“…procedures were carefully calibrated…” That’s the best you can do? Then to say it was only used on three men but leave out that it was done to them multiple times.
You can justify torture all you want and ignore the boost in terrorist recruiting as a result, but I will stand by the America I used to know and hope that it one day returns—torture free.
The Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority (VTA) will vote on its Fiscal Year 2010-2011 budget at its next Board of Directors meeting Thrusday evening in San Jose. The agency is facing a $21 million deficit for the 2010 fiscal year.
Part of the proposed budget includes a fare increase as well as paratransit service reductions. This is on top of the service reductions that will take place later in June. The fare increase, if approved, would take effect January 1, 2010. Details on the fare increase proposal are in page 2 of our group’s newsletter…
http://www.vtaridersunion.org/docs/may2009.pdf
At the May 7 VTA Board of Directors meeting, it was suggested that stipends for attending Board meetings be sacrificed. It was to be proposed as a sign of “shared sacrifice” to indicate that VTA management is willing to make some sacrifices of its own. A Palo Alto Daily Post story on May 12 revealed that 185 workers make over $100,000 a year – about 8% of its workforce. This includes 20 mechanics, 37 supervisors, and 21 bus drivers. The story also revealed that VTA has a “Client Relationship Supervisor” making over $107,000 a year – including over $47,000 in overtime. The story also mentioned that VTA has a “Document Management Supervisor” making over $102,000 a year – including nearly $14,000 in unpaid vacation time.
WHAT IS THE ISSUE?
VTA will vote on its budget proposal featuring a fare increase at its next Board meeting June 4.
WHERE AND WHEN IS THE BOARD MEETING?
June 4 at 5:30pm at the County Supervisors’ Chambers, 70 W. Hedding Street in San Jose. Get there on the 61, 62, 66, 180, and 181 express buses, or by light rail at the Civic Center station.
I note from reading the paper and listening to the news that the various shootings and stabbings over the weekend @ Shoreline, in the East Side, and Cambrian were perpetrated by a “disproportionate” number of Hispanics in relation to their percentage of the population. In fact, all of them were. Raj & Weeby—is this more evidence of racial profiling by the cops?
#21, Hi JMO,
If you can’t sell them turn them into a “youth hostel” so young budget minded international travelers have a affordable place to stay in Silicon Valley.
A large hostel will surely increase tourism, a subject that is not being discussed on this board. Here in Santa Cruz tourism is our largest industry (after UCSC).
Tourism keeps many restaurants, museums, entertainment places open and populates downtown at night with other than homeless, street people and ruffians.
A good lawyer like you could draw up the right papers to establish a succesful San Jose Hostel.
Otherwise (when I get lucky)we’ll open a first class hostel (sponsored by a marketing partner such as Apple, HP, Intel, Google, Adobe, etc) in Santa Clara, or Mtn. View, Sunnyvale, Campbell or PA. Those cities will get the TOT tax money, not SJ.
Hoping to open a large urban hostel (250 beds will soon be much too small) when the world’s geekiest, nerdiest hostel opens with the latest gizmos such as 3d movies, hottest video games, RFID, i-phones, etc., that every PC addict around the world will want to visit. In fact they’ll book a flight direct into SJC instead of SFO.
Yeah, I’m a 1trick, but perhaps some other blogger besides you will see this post and finally have some vision of a large hostel improving SJ “town”. You surely can’t consider SJ “world class” without international tourists arriving here?
I just can’t believe that as a supposed former hosteller you aren’t supporting a SJ hostel. Are you in cahoots with TMcE and luxury hotel interests who mistakenly believe a great hostel will take away business from the Fairymount or DeNanca?
Next time I’ll suggest a great spot for a SJ Hostel. Maybe we could add a mid-size year round waterpark, open to all, that’ll liven up the forlorn area near..
pgp3
Now Barack Obama is President, I was just getting used to Dwight David Eisenhower. Time goes by quickly. Who were those other people in the White House between Eisenhower and Obama? Did they accomplish anything?
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Just remember, you saw it here on SJI first! Tell a friend!;-)
I watched today’s Council meeting, 9/2/09. I thought I’d give you a head’s up, since I know Raj and the media will have a very different take on what actually was written, and done. Read and listen to the below links for yourself.
http://www.sjpoa.com/Messages.asp?i=368#Msg368
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2tOL6bnR4
During the Open Forum section, Raj and his followers were demanding the Mayor and Council censure the SJPOA for having an opinion on Raj’s behavior toward the Police. Raj claims he fears for the safety and the wellbeing of DeBugged members because of the article and Youtube above.
Funny, I don’t see Raj’s name mentioned in the article by its author, nor do I see anything other than Raj’s OWN words being spoken! So, what is the BIG deal?
To get the full scope of what happened today, go to the City’s website and watch the Open Forum for this afternoon’s Council session for yourself. Enjoy!
So Editor,
Are you back to censoring my comments AGAIN? What is the deal with you guys? Neither Jack or Tom pulled this crap.
29: Kathleen—The POA Raj video (and Fly commentary on it) have been posted here:
http://www.sanjoseinside.com/sji/blog/entries/raj_jayadev_poa_video/
And: You have never been censored here. I monitor this discussion as closely as I can and generally post comments as soon as I get a chance. In this case, I was preparing to post the piece linked above so I held onto your post for an hour or so.
30 – Geez, are we getting a little paranoid?? Why would you be censored? Everyone already knows what you are going to say anyway— you love the police, Raj sucks, the Merc is biased, etc. You say it over and over.
Perhaps, just perhaps, you should listen just a little to what others are saying. People can appreciate the job the police department does but they can still be critical, if necessary. Everyone wants a professional department and a safe community. If it gets to the point that we can’t criticize things that may be wrong, then whom is censoring whom?
Anyway, I’m not a police fanatic either way so you don’t have to attack me as anti-police. I don’t really even have dog in this hunt other than, like everyone else, wanting a good police department that responds to community needs. That doesn’t mean changing their practices because of a few bad citizens or a few bad cops. Keep a dialog open.
Eric said,“You have never been censored here.”
That is not true. You have censored me. But it is your blog to do with what you wish.
Humm seeing like san jose autorities rent tha capitol expressway and monterrey road to a homless.i did report the criminakl activities to a mayor reed and city manager.they did nothing,nada,cero
PGP3 #26 wrote:“A large hostel will surely increase tourism..” Yeah, tourists who’ll nurse one cappuccino or one beer for hours. We need tourists who spend, PGP. Low budget options should be available for those on a low budget, like students; but don’t try to use an economic argument to justify a hostel, dude.
George #27—ask Monica L, George. She and Slick Willy gave every HS boy justification for some “it’s not sex” in the car.
Kathleen # 29: It’s September already? Where DID the summer go?
Can anyone translate #34 into English? Thanks.
#32- Paranoid? I don’t think so. I posted my comment at 10 pm LAST NIGHT. Hum.
Pro Police huh? Yes I am, and your point is?
I never said Raj sucks. So try listening yourself.
JMO- Wishful thinking on my part.
I meant 6-2-09!
This “torture stuff” is complete and utter nonsense:
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/lscott/2009/06/02/mancowseriously-dude/
#35 JMO,
For a lawyer you make many assumptions!
I go through our SC hostel’s trash every Sunday for recyclables. Yes there are usually a few Starbucks cups, but also GAP and other upscale packaging material (new surfboards don’t get wrapped).
Few guests use our well equipped kitchen in the evening, most just have breakfast. I presume they eat out on the Wharf and on Pacific. Some return a bit tipsy, indicating more than one beer consumption; guess not all nurse cappuccinos. The Poet&Patriot; is a popular downtown Irish pub. Quite a few arrive in rental cars, a fair number in Lexus, Bmers and Pontiacs, recently an H3 rental. Some in ‘78 Chevys, but those are usually US. Our bicycle shed houses multi-$K bikes.
You are a fool if you associate hostels with income level or spending habits; we have all kinds staying at our hostel, our private rooms are filled with Bay area couples, often professionals, many return regularly. Recently met a heart surgeon from Davis at the Monterey Hostel who introduced some friends to hostelling, they all stayed in dorms. Most all of our European guests attended universities.
Most overseas travelers are used to hostels, prefer the social camaraderie of the place and like knowing the price beforehand.
We also have many groups staying with us. Last night had a SF high school group celebrating their upcoming graduation. An English group comes every year, same teachers, new students.
What makes you think that guests at fancy hotels in San Jose spend more? Their hotel vacancy rate is a lot higher than ours; even now we turn away many for lack of beds. We can’t send the overflow to San Jose since you don’t even have a single hostel (lousy for a supposed “World Class City”). Since Monterey Hostel and Pigeon Point are normally full, their only choice are dozens of SF hostels, many of them 24/7 operations that will gladly accommodate them.
Would be good to inform yourself on subjects that you obviously know nothing about!
You make me laugh, big spenders in San Jose? That’s how it used to be, but now most upscale hotel rooms are along 101 in Sunnyvale, Mtn. View, PA, Menlo Park, and bordering SFO. After all most hi-tech businesses are north of SJC, why would anyone stay south of the airport to fight traffic, SJ is just fill-in. The only time the Fairymount and DeCanca fill up are at convention time. With wi-fi and conference cameras (and tight budgets) the large conferences are disappearing. The Gamers had to move to SF because McEConv. Center and SC Conv. Ctr together weren’t big enough.
San Jose is now just “Middle Class”; the big shots all live up in the hills or Hillsb.-Atherton.
What’s wrong with converting one of the multitude of vacant SJ buildings (you got millions empty sq.ft) into a non-profit first-rate hostel? What’s the downside? Couldn’t SJ use additional TOT tax $$?
Your negative logic escapes me! Your lack of vision is disappointing!
pgp3 is a 1trickdude.
Well it looks like there is torture in America:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09719t.pdf
This is unacceptable. Where’s Nancy when you really need her?
Oh, wait, there’s no political gain from milking a GAO report titled “SECLUSIONS AND RESTRAINTS: Selected Cases of Death and Abuse at Public and Private Schools and Treatment Centers”
James Taranto has the best take on this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124412724085285291.html
begin quoted material:
When the report came out on May 19, we figured it would be a good opportunity to find common ground with politicians and commentators who’ve been complaining for years about the “torture” of terrorists. We figured President Obama would issue an executive order banning torture in schools, the New York Times would publish an indignant editorial, Dick Durbin would take to the Senate floor to declare that the teachers unions remind him of the Gestapo, and that nut who writes for The Atlantic would proclaim himself “shocked to the core.”
We were going to respond by saying that although we think there are circumstances under which it is justifiable to treat terrorists roughly, all good people can agree that torturing schoolchildren is categorically wrong. But we didn’t have anything to respond to. As far as we are aware, the GAO’s findings have been greeted with silence by the leading self-proclaimed “torture” opponents—though Education Secretary Arne Duncan did tepidly promise “he will ask state school chiefs around the country about the use of restraints and confinement of pupils in the classroom,” according to the Associated Press.
Where’s the outrage? Could it be that all the complaining about “torture” was but a pretext for some less noble agenda?