By Guest Blogger Larry Stone
Regrettably, the San Jose Inside blog is becoming a venue for civic malcontents. I love downtown San Jose. In fact, I love cities and vibrant downtowns. Downtown San Jose is not and will never be a San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, Boston, or even a Seattle. There is a tremendous opportunity for growth and improvement. Compare downtown San Jose today to when I moved to Santa Clara County 35 years ago; the contrast is simply incredible. Tom McEnery’s forceful and decisive leadership as Mayor got it started and made it happen.
The suggestion that downtown would have more high-end retail if the City had rejected Santana Row is ludicrous. Retail follows jobs and housing. I am aware of only three major metropolitan cities with high-end retail in the center of downtown; 5th Avenue in New York, Michigan Avenue in Chicago, and Newberry Street in Boston.
What downtown needs more than anything is more housing, more density, more people and of course, major league baseball. I believe the Guadalupe Riverpark will be a major regional asset equivalent to the HP Pavilion. Also, the proposed concert hall belongs downtown. To build it anywhere else feels like another Pavilion Shops debacle – putting something where it can’t succeed.
The expressed desire that downtown San Jose be transformed virtually overnight is understandable. However, if we achieve as much progress over the next 10 years as we have over the last 20 years (an acceptable ratio in a growing city) and don’t screw-up what we have, downtown San Jose will be an extraordinary place to live, work and play.
Larry Stone is the Santa Clara County Assessor.
Larry,
I agree. Downtown needs to be about housing, housing then more housing.
Good blog. And I doublechecked for typos. None! Good job!
Larry,
I think you’re preaching to the choir here. But we need someone to take charge and get it done like Tom did back in the 80’s. Right now I don’t see anyone running for mayor who seems like they can, or even more troubling, want to, do this. They’re all about the neighborhoods where the quality of life is already off the charts compared to downtown.
One point I’d like to make is that I don’t think most people are insisting that downtown must have high-end retail in order to succeed or become a destination. Just medium end will do—a category that a retailer like Bloomingdales would fall into. Even downtown L.A. can support successful department stores like Macy’s (the stores may no longer be located on Broadway, but they’re in the heart of downtown L.A. none the less) so if it can happen there, it can happen here too.
So now who’s going to make it happen?
We will build a model downtown, probably without you. Frankly, we don’t trust you and others like you. Why do you write this garbage now and not years ago? Do you have a financial interest in developing downtown SJ or the city itself?
If downtown is going to be a resident oriented community, then what it needs are practical stores rather than high end departments stores. I am talking more about the likes of Target, Mervyn’s, Fry’s, Long Drugs, etc. With places like these, we would probably see more people walking in downtown. Workers can do their errands at lunch time and residents can pick up their prescriptions without having to drive.
I believe Jude Barry and others started this blog to get a pulse on the affairs of San Jose. Unfortunately, Assessor Stone, and one of these days, Larry, would you mind dealing with assessment issues, as I think there are plenty of seniors and working people needing tax relief that would prefer you dealing with that. I belief standing around with a sign and a baseball cap is not attracting major league baseball.
Now Mr. Stone has now declared that there will not be any more respect given to bloggers that want to question and discuss issues, just be, as he calls them “malcontents.” Ok, can we have a vote right here and now, all those that agree with Larry, please email Jude and ask him and others to change the editorial policy of the blog.
We do not question your love of San Jose, Mr. Stone, but you seem anxious to deflect all questions by questioning the love of San Jose of others, which you would agree is what every insecure person does. The fact is that without anchor stores, major entertainment facilties, downtown will not gtow. SOFA grew based on the market, yes? The nightclub industry on SOFA did not stand on street corners with signs and caps, did they?
LARRY:
If u can read…read this: CONFLICT OF INTEREST
>> Downtown San Jose is not and will never be a San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, Boston, or even a Seattle.
A very good first step is to set realistic expectations. Couldn’t agree with you more.
>> Regrettably, the San Jose Inside blog is becoming a venue for the civic malcontent.
Wouldn’t you agree that there is a well earned lack of trust between the voters and city hall?
Until San Joseans get any sense that the city is taking steps towards transparency, disclosure, and open government, cynicism will dominate.
Pho Hoa, you can give up on Target and other “regular” stores downtown since a project is supposedly going forward to put a shopping center with a Target as anchor over at Coleman & Taylor on the old SPRR property. That’s going to help to kill the chances of any stores of this kind wanting to locate on the downtown side of the Coleman overpass.
This aint a game of horseshoes and the Coleman/Taylor area doesn’t come close to being downtown, but watch people at City Hall take credit anyway for adding this as a “downtown” shopping option.
You go, Stan!
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.”—Teddy Roosevelt.
It is fair for those who are in the arena to challenge the rest of us step to the plate. To provide critique without proffering a possible solution is the worst form of self-indulgence.
Those who are intent on throwing stones at people encased, sometimes imprisoned, in glass houses do not add value to the public debate.
However, a person who tries to offer a solution, along with a critique, adds to the public discussion and may ultimately provide ideas that can be used by those in the public arena.
It is sometimes difficult to sort through the myriad of ideas. However, a good leader can usually tell the difference between steak and manure.
For those of us who like to offer our opinion, another Teddy Roosevelt should not be forgotten:
“The men with the muckrakes are often indispensable to the well-being of society; but only if they know when to stop raking the muck.”
If Mayor Hammer had pushed for a downtown retail instead of folding to Santana Row. we would have retail downtown. There is starting to be enough people living and working there. there just needs to be a plan. What has Gonsalez done for the downtown? Why wouldn’t the bloggers be negative. You can’t talk to the Mayor unless you’re a lobbist or have one working for you, he doesn’t keep track of phone calls, and he never meets with people who aren’t going to invite him to play golf.
Larry, you don’t get it! Downtown San Jose is not even Phoenix, Albuquerque or Los Angeles. Downtown San Jose is a tremendous loser, abeit improvements over last 20 years with failing Tech Museum, concrete ugly, Guadalupe riverpark and Fairmont hotel. Downtown SJ is so puny and dead comparing to any city of 1 million. Downtown is a miserable failure! Housing alone will not cut it. Downtown SJ needs to build maximam density like Chicago and even more than San Francisco to be successful. It (downtown) needs 75 or more highrises above 12 stories high. They don’t have to build any higher than 30 story if they can’t because of FAA restrictions, but it must look like a real city with high density and urban feel, not pathetic suburban feel. The city really screwed it up big time when it spread out and build the lousy shopping malls surrounding the city to really support suburban culture that is a God awful culture. What a miserable waste of precious real estate that could have protected open land and reduced traffic by building tract homes, malls and highways, not high density in or near downtown SJ. Shame on San Jose. It blew it! The city can mitigate the situation by focusing entirely on downtown with development of housing, attractions and etc. , but by the big way, meaning alot of highrises and world class attractions worthy of space needle, Eiffle tower or Light tower. San Jose must hurry up!
The single biggest obstacle San Jose will ever face in fixing it’s downtown is coming to grips with the fact that the vast majority of San Joseans don’t live downtown, don’t do business downtown and seldom visit downtown. Those are the cold, hard, indisputable facts that downtown boosters seem to overlook.
San Jose will never have a vibrant downtown. You’re dreamin. It too unfocused.
I totally agree with Larry. Downtown San Jose is dynamic. It has so many attributes such as the new city hall, river park and California theater as well as Martin Luther King Jr. library. San Jose can improve the downtown area by adding more highrise housing. Hopefully, CIM will break ground on block 3 as promised. The same goes for Barry Swenson. If the developments do materialize, Downtown San Jose will be best downtown in the U.S. . Not that much work needs to be done because downtown is so much farther along.
looks cheap and also too many insiders / fees involved jacking up the prices. These connections and insiders need to be broken up. They prevent us from growing. They are on committees and the likes.
I enjoy reading San Jose Inside including the negative commentary. I also agree that there is plenty of legitimate material for criticism and dissent in our town.
During a two-week period however, 82% of the blogs ranged from negative to downright belligerent; an even higher percentage if you don’t count John McEnery, IV’s hilarious vignettes. Hence my comment that “San Jose Inside is becoming a venue for civic malcontents,” and my relatively positive contribution about downtown San Jose.
To survive with regular readership and contributors, better balance is needed. It should be neither a “puff piece” for San Jose or an outlet for the civic malcontents, who can’t see a good side in anything, to just vent!
Larry Stone
Larry,
King Richard of Lobbyland is right – so in that spirit I will henceforth summarize and proffer some of the solutions proposed by the unwashed malcontents on this board.
1. remove the giant dog poop sculpture from Cesar Chavez park post haste
2. move the Fallon statue to a prominent location (like Cesar Chavez)
3. bulldoze Cesar Chavez park, pave it, add additional fountains, ring it with palm trees, and light it up at night to provide some ambiance instead of the utter black hole gloom that the park is at night.
4. ‘our’ Mayor telling us that his office doesn’t keep phone records – we don’t like that. We want to know who our elected representatives are talking too. Please publish to the web all contacts between our representatives and developers and their lobbyists. BTW, this should be quite easy to do with the VOIP phone system going into new city hall.
5. San Jose is sitting at the epicenter of the IT universe. The city should leverage this resource to engage, educate, and empower it’s citizens.
6. Don’t believe this board represents the views of the community? Then the city should try using the web to engage it’s citizens and find out what it’s citizens think are important.
I believe that items 1-6 can be implemented for less than 5 billion dollars.
Thanks.
Benjamin Franklin seems to have the political elite in mind, the ones who track the negative talk or the “give them a break comment “when he said
“Every man comes among us (and I will edit it and insist it be man and woman), …. has a Voice in Elections…and a share in the Government of the Country.”
I think Jude, Rich, Tom, Chuck, Shelley, Larry, Rick, Dale, and others are far brighter than me, and far more reserved and far less bloviating. Larry Stone is one of the best and brightest people in the valley, and deserves respect for being who and what he is. But I, as others, Larry, as much as we love you and we do more than we love San Jose, are going to say flat out, that the whole Stand By Me adventure was ill done, and not well operated. Ron is a brilliant guy, and I would put more statues of Ron than “Falling Down” Fallon in San Jose for what he is done. But I think you guys were wrong, and Rich, you have a great a part in how much this valley develops, but when you slam and bam Joe Trippi (whom we used to say at San Jose State could get a career as a Travolta impersonator) for stuff you have done to some of us, ok, but look back. Chuck has written, along with Rick and Jude, some of the best blogs on the site,but as much as we all love Chuck, it is sometimes going to be a hard set of disagreements.
I have focused my whole career as a planning consultant on representing homeowners because I think they deserve lobbying just as much as worthy clients of Erik and others. Indeed, I believe a planning consultant like me that represents the individual homeowner at planning commissions and historic commissions makes Ron and the 10 council members, as well the SC Council look good, because it shows City Hall will listen to them, and Ron and company have been very kind to some of the people in tight spots with complicated single home problems. But on these things, I am a little too frustrated and will try a lot better to be more constructive, but let’s remember what BF said too, k?
Larry,
Eighteen percent positive is still 12 points better than the Mercury News, which has an even lower percentage if you take out the comics.
Who does these stats?
It is not the quantity, but the content of the blog, that matters—be it positive, negative or belligerent.
How many were fun?
Boo!
Stan Hoza, you forget the MERC Eyesore Sign
Now Stan has a sense of humor.
But as leaders may be able to tell steak from manure, some don’t know the difference between manure and art.
P.S. I am not King of Lobbyland. If I were, Lobbyland would have a baseball team.
I agree 100% with smurf. The suburban areas devoid of any cultural stimuli do not need or deserve any more attention other than to maintain streets, trees, and the sidewalks those trees often cause to buckle. The feeding tube needs to be removed from the suburban cultural abyss—it is an ugly monster that can survive on its own.
Downtown needs all the help the city can throw at it, and that starts with excellent planning. All we need is one catalyst development and maybe CIM will provide it. Larry, can you blame any citizen of SJ for being skeptical about even the CIM project given the track record downtown?
Stan is correct about the pile in the plaza and it’s not lost on me that he ranked it as Number One on his list of things to do to fix downtown. NOBODY will touch this one because of the ethnic backlash that will surely ensue with just the mere mention of moving that P.O.S. somewhere else. If anything needed to be on a lonely island where nobody would see it, it is that pile, not the Fallon statue. But we still have wimps in charge who are easily pushed around by uneducated uppity types who make noise when their culture is supposedly being disrespected (does anyone remember when McEnery tried to obtain the Studio theater for the SJ rep and this same group went ballistic—and now the place sits empty). So complaints from anyone who thinks the pile in the plaza is an appropriate way to showcase one group’s cultural heritage need to be flatly ignored. Let them take the city to court—they will lose. It’s the city’s art and the city can put it anywhere it wants. The pile needs to be scooped out of there and replaced with something that truly has civic and artistic merit—like the Fallon statue.
This is so simple.
The statue of Fallon is offensive to some in the Latino Community. The Quetzalcoatl statue is offensive to many in Ceasar Chavez Park.
Solution: Put a statue of Ceasar Chavez in in Ceasar Chavez Park, I assume he doesn’t offend anyone but the growers in the Central Valley.
Put the Quetzalcoatl statue facing the Fallon statue in San Pedro Square, the new City Hall or some other venue to symbolize the tension between the early settlers and the Mexican Nationals—it could also symbolize the current failure of the different cultures to recognize the significant, though sometimes misunderstood, contributions of the other.
Not only that, but because the two statues seem to be historically linked in a modern sense—their story and the controversy surrounding them could be told to future generations.
That would make both statues interesting in an artistic sense.
Ooops, I am counting, well, 345,767 is hard for me to count to before blogging. Ah, there is going to be an Arch for Cesar Chavez in the park. The Associated Students, in a very decent move, gave 25,000 grand to it.
The Fallon Statue offends MOSTLY EVERYONE.
Ps, to fullfill the new Larry Stone rule, I like the website Larry put in as assessor. Ok, there, postive. Now, why do we need a statue of Thomas “Falling Down” Fallon. Why is there not a single, single, single, street, poster, statue, memorial corner, park, or anything for Adolph Pfister, who founded the library, founded Alum Rock Park, and thus did about the same for SJ as Franklin did for Philadelphia???
We already a Cesar Chaves public art thingy. You know, the bronze table with a hat on it and 1 chair – that mocks you as you look around for a place to sit.
James,
As I hear legend tell, Adolph Pfister once yelled at his gardener once for cutting the grass too short during the summer.
Surely you’re not suggesting that the perpetrator of such racism be given a statue do you?
Have some more PC koolaid.
Look, let’s see if we can get some real discussion focal points here.
a) Larry believes that a set of good anchors like a ballpark (and, Larry, were is SF on your list of high-end stores in the downtown core?), will help downtown.
b) we used tohave San Jose 456th on the list of cities that have handled public art correctly, but Ron has really made us the 10th largest city in everything including art
c) We have important contributions from every ethnic community to the history of San Jose, and we must recognize the efforts of Japantown and the fact that this was an important pubelo of Mexico before it became a city of the USA. However, we have Scheller and Pfister, both of whom were likely French citizens from Alassce-Lorraine, whom we have almost no reason to give any credit to at all. ( I will only say it, if asked who) There was comment that Scheller, one of our most famous DA, made up stories that he lived in downtown, and we have nothing for Pfister.
This is the greatest city on the West Coast, people, we have a room for a thousand local heroes, and many of them being women, of many ethnic communities, let’s be proud of that instead of just having “Falling Down” Fallon.
>> “Scheller and Pfister, both of whom were likely French citizens from Alassce-Lorraine”
Hi James,
I appreciate your trying to keep it positive but you’re answering your own question. Being from France, they were likely not people of color, no?
There’s no room at this politically correct inn for statues of people of pallor.
>> but Ron has really made us the 10th largest city in everything including art
I’m reaching for the wretch bucket.
Political blogs have a tendency as do many neighborhood associations to initially have a lot of negative comments since it is easier to critize than to understand the complex issues and do the hard work to develop workable popular complex solutions to the challenges of San Jose’s future.
The dictionary defines a -: malcontent as – “A chronically dissatisfied person “ The large number of personal attacks and negative comments especially from people that are both unwilling to identify themselves, so we can have some context for their comments, or fail to supply documented supporting facts – I agree with Rich – “ do not add value to the public debate.”
An unwillingness to identify yourself, I would hope is for a valid reason like fear of political or job retribution rather than the all too often commonly used Internet immature reason of hiding behind anonymity to hurl insults and inappropriate personal attacks
Those in city government or others that use, advocate or threaten retribution against our free speech rights should be identified and strongly condemned for their inappropriate and potentially illegal behavior in the strongest terms, reinforced by civil and criminal penalities.
Many in San Jose fit the 2 additional dictionary definitions of “ dissatisfied with existing conditions “ and “one who rebels against the established system “ – not all rebels are bad people and many have the best intentions for their city, community or county.
It is healthy in any public discussion to question the motives of individuals especially those who have a past histroy of – “ behind the scenes “ or “ closed doors deals “ that benefit themselves or their friends and do not clearly disclose their self interests or the political paybacks to political campaign supporters. Political or economic advocacy by consultants is legal and is the job for which they are being paid, even if you don’t agree with them or their client’s proposals.
If a business or developer can make money doing public good – great, but we also need a open clear fully disclosed discussion on what is the public good, what public funds go into each project and why, what are the consultants and client’s connections to the politicans making or deciding on public policy so that these “ potential conflicts of interest “ are openly part of the public dicsussion which in the viewpoint of many San Jose residents honest complete fiscally responsible open public policy discussions do not always occur .
The tone and information in the public discussion on San Jose Inside is slowly improving. Keep up the well thought out discussions so that they outweight the rantings and insults so that we do not lose good people that love San Jose and their ideas that could contibute to improving our San Jose.
Larry,
We have lived smack in the middle of downtown SJ for six years and we love it too. Sure, it’s not Boston, NY or Chicago – but those cities have been around since the Patriots carried muskets on their shoulders instead of shoulder pads . . . A bit of a head start on little ol’ SJ, whose City Song could have been “After the Goldrush.”
An improved Municipal Stadium for the San Jose Giants would be cause for civic pride as well. Minor league baseball is a great time out. A major league team downtown would be the absolute icing on the cake.
Keep up the good work and don’t let the naysayers get you down.
Ed’s post is terrific. Any person who cloaks their identity and is unwilling to take personal responsibility for their posts is a coward.
As for Jim’s rant about Fallon, I can only say many historical people have statues displayed, even though they are controversial or despised by some historically.
Columbus adornes our State Capitol, many regard him as an invader not a “discoverer”.
In our nation’s Capitol Building each State is allowed to have two statues. Mississippi chose to put a likeness of Jefferson Davis in Statuary Hall, he is very close to Virginia’s Robert E. Lee. Both of whom I consider traitors to the United States.
A statue or work of art does not have to be a person we like or honor. And, surprise, some people still revere Bob Lee and Jeff Davis. It is the disagreement and history that make the statues worth presenting and talking about.
My solution for Fallon and Quetzalcoatl is simply to allow both sides to present their views. In doing so, future generations can learn about the history of San Jose, both then and now.
I think some Christians object to Quetzalcoatl being displayed for religious reasons. Yet, they would have no problem with a work of Christ, which might be offensive to some other religions.
Controversy is the basis for good art. Fallon and Quetzalcoatl together forever. It just seems fitting.
As for Pfister, I’m sure we can dig up some dirt on him too. But go ahead and display him at a local library. It is good historical knowledge.
>>An unwillingness to identify yourself, I would hope is for a valid reason like fear of political or job retribution
Spot on.
If you’re espousing a typical bay area point of view, disclosure’s not a problem, but the funny thing about living in a diversity first blue state (and the bluer than blue bay area) is the lack of tolerance for non-blue opinions.
Who needs to get blindsided by a neighbor or co-worker and hit with an *-ist tag? Not me.
BTW, my apologies to James for the unduly harsh replies earlier on this thread.
Just pent-up frustration with the pc’ness that permeates the bay area – but that’s my problem.
I was born outside of Boston.
I spent third grade through high school in L.A.
College @ USF, and law school @ Hastings in S.F.
I have worked in dowtown San Jose for thirty years. I yearned for a dowtown that would keep me in it after work hours.
L.A. was once called a bunch of suburbs in search of a city.
San Jose is a bunch of suburbs not interested in a city. That’s the part that all the powers that be for the last twenty years refuse to ackowledge—90% of the residents of San Jose, or indeed Santa Clara County, could not care less about downtown San Jose becoming anything.
We’ve spent billions backwards—housing must precede retail. Look at The Pavilion (what a great idea to build retail where no-one lives).
We have some restaurants. But why would someone who merely works downtown go home to Los Altos, Palo Alto, Los Gatos, Saratoga, Gilroy…and then drive back downtown San Jose to go eat or shop? Why would someone who has no connection to downtown San Jose come here at all on a regular and frewquent basis?
At the end of the day a downtown core of retail/restaurants/fun venues will be supported primarily by people like John and SaraySpreer. Rob & Naila Pena, Anthony Lozano and others who live downtown; rarely by people who have to drive home and then back again to get here.
The convention center may bring out-of-towners here for a week or less, but they will never be the backbone of our economy.
To make “downtown” work, we need high density downtown dwellers. A viable transit system that goes more thasn 5mph downtown would also help, but BART ain’t it. Downtown will not in my lifetime be a draw for people from the “burbs”—which are as close as Willow Glen, Campbell, and Berryessa.
John Michael O’Connor
Hi Murf,
I’ve gotten much insight into city history and politics in just a short time from this board. It’s a great community service IMO.
As for the negative tone, most of us are just unwashed anklebiters that are only privy to what we get here and from the merc, metro, etc.
I think what your seeing on this board is that people are generally torqued by the lack of good stewardship emanating from city hall.
City hall proponents need to post facts and links to counter this perception. Complaining about malcontents and the negative tone doesn’t cut it.
gee, stop being argumentative, on a site that is about posing arguments, okey dokey
Coming here from Philly, I was shocked and stunned how small and hollow downtown San Jose is. It’s so boring and dull. Before coming to San Jose, I was expecting it to be bigger than Boston or San Francisco in terms of downtown because people keep saying it’s the capital of Silicon Valley. I go “It’s this it?! It’s so sterile and has no character. Not all is lost on San Jose. San Francisco is 1 hr. north of San Jose. San Jose is so lucky to have San Francisco because it’s the most exciting place in the world. That’s where I go to have fun. You, too, can have fun in that beloving city.
LS wrote: “I enjoy reading San Jose Inside including the negative commentary. I also agree that there is plenty of legitimate material for criticism and dissent in our town.
During a two-week period however, 82% of the blogs ranged from negative to downright belligerent; an even higher percentage if you don’t count John McEnery, IV’s hilarious vignettes. Hence my comment that “San Jose Inside is becoming a venue for civic malcontents,” and my relatively positive contribution about downtown San Jose.
To survive with regular readership and contributors, better balance is needed. It should be neither a “puff piece” for San Jose or an outlet for the civic malcontents, who can’t see a good side in anything, to just vent!”
Mr. Stone,
I agree with you 100%. I frequently read the blogs and poster’s contributions to this site, and have come to the conclusion that this site has decayed to an online bitch session. Instead of lively debate, which I hoped to encounter here, I find here nothing but argumentative political positioning. Thank you for being bold enough to point out what this site has become, which I beleive is contrary to it’s original intent. This site was developed, I believe, to increase the public discourse of city matters. Unfortunately, it has turned sour.
Don’t ya just love “I want to be the next SJ mayor”? A “politician” who refuses to give us his name. WOW!
John Michael O’Connor
Mark T 23:
That was sarcasm, right—the Fallon statue in Plaza de Cesar Chavez?
Are you really “John from Cupertino”?
John Michael O’Connor
Sitting here with a good cup coffee on Memorial Day morninig,I went back in time to see what the past evolved too.
What Larry Stone wrote on March 28th 2005 does not even come close to what I experienced in the down town core last weekend while satisfing my curiousity, about the real down town night life.
San Jose has been Greened by booze at every dive in the down town core.It’s the only money to be had in this economy, I’ve been told.
The police are not administering their authority equally across the board as has been said by the arrest results and the folks appointed by the council to flush out the results. Now they are gone!
Larry points out that if we don’t screw up what we have, San Jose, will be an extrordinary place to live work and play in ten years. We’re half way there.
Somebody screwed up! We don’t need yet another Hispanic Scape Goat. We need leadership.
Now, Let’s follow the money.
What more could befall us, in the attempts to cover up this horrendeous mess that has given our Village a hugh black eye, Nationally. Shootings,arrests, city council infighting,you all know the rest.
Larry gives credit to Tom’s forceful leadership as Mayor for getting it started. What will it take to finish the job to transform this Village into the next Great City. Civic Malcontents need not respond!
Oh Hell, give it a shot, but be nice!
The Village Black Smith