If you thought the downtown problems I described in last week’s column are bad, wait until you see what the Downtown Association and nightclub lobby have in store for the very near future. They call it “soft closing,” which is really just a euphemism for extending opening hours for nightclubs from 2 a.m. until 3 a.m. The city planning department will hold a hearing on the matter of a proposed pilot program for a large designated area of downtown on June 11 at 6:30 p.m., followed by a city council hearing on June 19 at 1:30 p.m., both at City Hall.
Under the present circumstances, this is a terrible idea. Downtown has already been thrown out of balance by the irresponsible behavior of certain types of nightclubs and the patrons they draw (as discussed in my last week’s column). Why should the city reward these troublemakers with an extra hour of business and drinking/carousing when they are already negligent of the neighborhoods and the community in the extreme? The lobby dresses the program up by including restaurants and bars, but what well-run, self-respecting restaurant would want to stay open that late and have the kind of troubles these nightclubs bring exported to their establishments?
The supporters of this program will say that alcohol service will still stop at 1:30 a.m. according to the law, as will music and noise, but patrons will now have 1½ hours to relax and wind down before going out into the night. However, what is to stop a patron from ordering 4 or 5 drinks to consume in their 1½ hours and going out into the city at 3 a.m. to relieve themselves in the car park or the street as is now the case at 2 a.m.?
The initial pilot program area, bounded by St. John Street, San Carlos Street, San Pedro Street and Fourth Street, contains a large number of residents who are already forced to live with the current situation until 2 a.m. and the aftermath each weekend morning. Why are the rights of residents to live in peace not being respected? The core area allows for later closings for all businesses, while a larger outer area allows for restaurants only. The boundary lines go down the middle of streets, so businesses on one side are affected but not those on the other side. Are you telling me that the police are going to escort patrons from one club on one side of the street out of town at 2 a.m. while those on the other side of the street get to sit in comfort drinking for another hour? It’s easy to see that it won’t be long before the lobby pushes to make the extended hours permanent and apply them to the whole city. Do you think that the Santana Row clubs are not going to make a stink to get the same hours? What about the nightclub establishments on the wrong side of San Pedro Street like Taste and Club Cuccini? What about SoFa south of West San Carlos Street, the popular music club district which is completely outside the designated pilot area?
All of this will bring more overtime for the police, more problems on the street and in the car parks, more noise and other troubles for residents, and more of the types of people who are already making downtown a no-go area in the evening for those who don’t fit the profile of a nightclub patron. The truth is the downtown area is being turned upside down to suit the desires of a small number of businesses that make big money catering to patrons who will make San Jose’s core the sleazy club capital of the Bay Area. We are already well on our way. Soft closings will just ice the cake. If the council approves this program, you can kiss the vision of a safe, clean and fun downtown for citizens of all ages goodbye.
Closing times are a hold over from this country’s Puritan morality mindset, and need to be eliminated.
As time goes by, more and more businesses will run night shifts in order to increase productivity, and reduce traffic. These people need something to do after work, and closing times discriminate against these workers.
So, in addition to being puritanical, closing times are a form of illegal discrimination.
What Jack should do is focus on bad behavior, which can occur at anytime of the day.
What the Planning Commission says or does no longer has any impact in the City of San Jose. The present dictatorship of Mayor Reed is running the City. He is forcing the Commission to vote on the 1,900 unit Irvine project without having the requisite information required to make an informed decision. He is forcing the vote, because he already has his Council cronies set up to overturn, if necessary, any decision the Planning Commission may make. Our new dicatotor mayor, his cronies on the Council, and his lead staff (Horwedol) have made the Planning Commission useless.
Umm, #3 I was thinking that the goal of CIVILIZATION was to enhance the human condition without detrimental results for any segment of the community. Terms like “Urban Jungle” and an attitude that “things happens” in reference to assaults does not bolster the position that some attendees of venues like this have the maturity to handle certain portions of the social contract. By condoning actions like that as “the norm!” you have merely sidestepped any notion of personal accountability. One does not have to act poorly in public to “have a good time”. (Could this be why the police are in prominence?)
I have never cared for the club scene; but that does not mean that clubs should be eliminated! Certainly things can be done to help keep handbills from creating such a mess. How about using those doing their Community Service Work to pick them up, sort them out and then the City could fine the clubs at $0.05 for any copies found littering the public area? Cleans up the area, sends a message to the clubs, and keeps those needing a little time to reflect on their actions busy.
Some of the complaints registered against the clubs are unfounded. I have no sympathy for people moving into an area where a club, airport, stadium, etc is already located; and then complaining because of the clientele, noise, or traffic congestion! It shouldn’t work that way! Almaden Feed & Fuel is a perfect example (new residents to the area complained that the bar was a nuisance, yet the bar had been there over 100 years!), Reed Hillview Airport another. Can a balance be met? Yes, but it will take time and the willingness to make concessions from both sides.
Meanwhile, I will stay in the ‘burbs, and watch how San Jose can cope with some of these growing pains.
Gee, I’m amazed so many people know what my “vision” was in 1982 – I’m quite and immodestly shocked. I like bars, entertainment, clubs, restaurants – but just one disclaimer: No. 3 says some “may not be perfect or to my liking…” Ya think so! Do you think murder, mayhem, a rave scene in the city garages, and a ‘hit and back over’ are WORLD CLASS. Just whose vision is that, Quentin Tarantino’s? TMcE
And here I thought Falwell had died.
The point of this is to lessen the amount of so-called “thugs” out on the street as once. It disperses patrons gradually and decreases the chances of a serious incident. It’s been employed by bars for years. Stop ranting and do some research before going on your righteous crusade against fun.
If this is all about crowd management, why not give soft closings a shot. But to be fair, start them at 12 and end the at 4.
5 – Reed and his colleagues also ignore their planning staff like Horwedel. Just look at the decision to destroy Building 25—Reed and Company ignored the recommendation of the Landmarks Commission, the Planning Commission, and the Planning Department.
With “experts” like Reed and his Council yes-people we don’t even need the city commissions or staff. Look how much money could be saved if we got rid of all staff and commissions. In fact, why even have public hearings anymore. They just waste time and annoy Reed and group. The potential savings are endless. Look for a task force soon to develop the guidelines (which of course can be ignored by the council).
Looks like we’ll have to wait a few more years to really get out from under the darkness of the Gonzo years.
#6 John and others
You are correct when you say this is about bad behavior and finding solutions to keep things in balance. I have no objection to responsible businesses being open 24 hours a day. The trouble with this current plan is that irresponsible behavior by a very small percentage of businesses and patrons is being rewarded without requiring them to clean up their act first.
When I moved downtown in 1999, it was nothing like it is now. It has gotten worse in the past 3 or 4 years, leading to the situation I described last week. It has really reached an unbearable point with the arrival of Taste, Club Cuccini, the Ambassador (Miami Beach Club) and the Vault in our neighborhood in the very recent past.
I don’t care what goes on inside the doors of any club or other business as long as it is lawful and it stays inside with no adverse impact on the surrounding neighborhood and community. That is not the situation currently.
We will soon find out if soft closings make any difference because it will surely be tried. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. In fact, I will be delighted if it works and things greatly improve. If not, I assume the council will be looking for other solutions. I intend to observe what happens and will continue to revisit the situation as we see how it goes.
Tom, hate to break it to you but our downtown is not full of “Mayhem and Murder”. Save the melodramatics for your next book- maybe you should try fiction, you have a flair for it. Again, if you want to live in the suburbs, sell your vendome home (which is NOT downtown proper) and move to the burbs. You and Jack are stuck in the 80’s- the 1880s.
Tom, you’re out of touch with reality. Just go to one of those world class cities you pick and stay there for a month. You’ll see how much mayhem, murder and chaos goes on in those cities. I’m well traveled. I have the experience what other vibrant cities go through. They all have these nagging problems. That’s the reality! If you didn’t forsee in your plan back in 1982, then you bit more than you chew on, so, I guess, you should move to the suburbs. It’s a real city now, and it mostly originated from your downtown redevelopment during the 80’s and 90’s. Unfortunately, it stems from yours and the past 2 mayors. They all carried your vision of a “24hr downtown” equiped with the Tech museum, Children museum, city hall, library, nightlife, theaters, riverpark, corporate headquarters, 5,000 units housing, 8.2 million square feet of office space, “the Shark Tank”, light rail/transit mall, and the convention center. These all the things you laid in your vision for downtown in the future(which is today) back in the early 80’s, and alot of them were only in your dreams when you were running the city. The last 2 mayors thankfully carried out the rest of your dreams and visions. All this is too much for you to handle? Well, we could have been very unfortunate and be just a little better than 1979 with only few more office towers and crappy outdate hotels by now. Also, downtown could be dead and abandoned with us wishing to have the nightlife we got. God was on our side to help make downtown a vibrant one, according to recent NY Times travel article. Be careful what you wish for because we could be way, way worst off. If you can’t handle it, go to the suburbs.
The 1880’s were a very progressive period in San Jose’s History. The Light Tower went up (1881) The ‘New’ City hall was begun in 1887, St. Josephs was fully renovated, The main post office was close, with its cornerstone placed in 1891. Two Santa Clara County histories were published, 1881 and 1887 (J.P. Munroe-Fraser & H.S. Foote respectively) Sounds like a good time to have been around! ANd yet #12, you say ‘1880’s’ like it’s a bad thing…….
#12, if anybody is stuck in the 1880’s it’s our mayor. His old school style is a mismatch for the dynamics of 21st century Silicon Valley and is more suited for some one-horse wheat-farming Kansas town. Has anybody listened to his Monday morning chats on KLIV? I can’t anymore, or I’ll fall asleep at the wheel as I drive in to work.
Personally, I am very disgusted over his tendencies to concentrate on issues in his old council district. That’s all we ever hear about, how Reed is trying to facilitate things that he feels will benefit D4. This guy is bad news, I was and still am very annoyed with SJ electorate for their misguided decisions in the ‘06 primary. Most people didn’t want Cindy in charge, that was clear, but why they thought Chuck was the right choice is beyond me. There was not a more glaring mismatch on the entire ballot.
Tom,
You talk of murder and mayhem. Your an owner and staffer of the sharks. They own the arena which puts on the Bomb Concerts.
The bomb concerts have caused actual murder and mayhem. And you profit. about a year ago, there were 2 shootings and 3 stabbings by customers on a wednesday bomb concert night. Why is the arena and the sharks, which again you profit from, held to the same standards as the clubs in the 24 hour city?
It seems to me that this and other posts make it clear that we are being held hostage downtown by a small group of social misfits/undesirables. The diversity crowd refuses to let the police do their work to eliminate these folks from our midst, despite overwhelming evidence that the profile of the troublemakers is a narrow one. Instead we must cater to the PC crowd who refuses to admit that the vast majority of the troublemakers fit within a very narrow range, and can be easily identified by even an untrained eye.
So, we end up with a system in which everyone is unhappy with the implementation of dowtown control. Law abiding citizens, family gatherings, middle class folk out for a good time, visitors unaware of the parade of thugs, hip hoppers, drunks and vatos locos—all are put off by a massive police presence, herding all and sundry out of town, lest Rick Callender and others accuse the cops of racial profiling.
Are we doomed to cede the dowtown to a rag tag group of drunken revelers with no social conscience?
So, rather than piss everybody off—the case today—why can’t we just crack down on the offenders instead of subjecting the 98% of lawabiding fun lovers to the same indignities/bums rush as the troublemakers? That includes the clubs that attract the troublemakers.
The cops know instinctively who the troublemakers are; but they have to deal with this charade of not accosting them because some ethnic group will cry fowl.
The real demographic is not ethnic, however, it is socio-economic. The troublemakers have little in common ethnicly (a**holes come in all colors), but lots in common economically. It is much less common to see a white, black, latin, asian, or black troublemaker from a higher economic background than to see one from a lower economic background. How we educate those folks is an answer I don’t have; but until we do, they need to understand what will and what will not be tolerated. If that involves arrest and incarceration, then let’s do it.
But in the end, that doesn’t matter either. We need to interdict the troublemakers without stomping on those having a good time without impinging on the fun and rights of the majority of us who have done nothing wrong. The 99.9% of us who live within the law and don’t harass others, and behave/drink responsibly have rights too, ya know. Yet we are made to suffer for the iniquities of the few.
We need to embrace all classes of people. Whether they are scum, filth, trash, garbage rubbish or dirt. Maybe they were never given a chance. The state prison system has 172,000 inmates, it was designed to hold 100,000. The governor should release all 172,000 inmates. If society gave them a chance they would change their ways. If perhaps they were given union jobs and a fair wage. Then we could all live in peace harmony and love.
#17
despite overwhelming evidence that the profile of the troublemakers is a narrow one.
Please tell us what this profile is so that we can help the police.
I’m not sure how to identify a poor person that is also a criminal.
jack,
you seem to be a person who really needs a companion. Have you at least considered a dog or cat?
Just some FYI for anyone who cares. This post by Jack is full of a bunch of un truths and misconceptions.
One major one is that alcohol by city and state law would have to be off the floor of the bars and restaurants by 2am. so a person can’t order five extra drinks to enjoy after 2am.
Also, the establishments will to have entertainment after 1:30am. just back ground music.
The sky continues to fall and we should all run. but at least someone (club owners or not) are trying to make things better than this pathetic over reactive police and thug state that we have.
Remember, the city encouraged nightlife. If nightlife is such a problem; just pay them to leave.
I laugh when people make the comments that the police are “over reacting”.
I used to route police reports for the records department at the PD. I would come in every Saturday and Sunday morning and read them.
There is always something happening. I can’t go into detail on what happend in the reports but, things like brawls involving 20 to 30 people at a time, robbery, stabbings. Just because your not around when it’s happening or you don’t happen to hear it on the news doesn’t mean it’s not happening. The police are there for a reason. They already know what’s going on downtown. What do you expect them to do. Pull out all the officers from downtown, and wait for something to happen? They are trying to be pro-active about the situation.
Also, I can’t believe people are willing to settle for murder, robbery, assault and chaos just for an “urban jungle” atmosphere.
I guess that’s why I live in the burbs and only go to downtown during friendly hours.
Jack, if you want peace and quiet, go and move to suburbs. We want San Jose to be an urban jungle just like New York and other major cities-24hr city that McEnery originally called for when he first suggested in reviving downtown back in 1982. It may be the curse of his vision back then, but the “24hr” theme is coming out in fury and nobody should stop his old dream! Like Donald Trump said, “never, ever quit your ambitions” As for downtown San Jose, McEnery originally called for downtown to be a “24hr downtown”, and he’s going to that whether he likes it or not! Yeah, some restaurant and bar establishments may not be perfect or to his liking, but get over it! Most successful major cities aren’t without flaws. It goes like this, in Toronto,“there have been several killings outside the bar.” In Montreal, “several people have been stabbed after leaving the nightclub on St. Catherant St,” and lastly, In Sydney, “Several people were critically injured in a brawl outside a pub.” You know what? Things happen when you have all successful clubs in the entertainment districts in all of these vibrant, world class cities’ downtowns. You see, it’s the norm! We can improve this picture by doing some balancing acts with our law enforcment and security of the clubs. They can brainstorm how to increase safety of downtown. It really helps by having soft closing or just flat out keep some of clubs open to 6am in the morning as they do in those fun world cities. If you don’t want that, go to suburbs!
23 – You are badly in need of a clue. I don’t know who you are talking about but it certainly isn’t Horwedel. He’s just about the opposite of everything you said about him. The Planning Department is in excellent hands under his leadership—if only the City Council would listen to him.
#17 – JMO, penalizing the law-abiding for the iniquities of the few is quite literally the grease of the body politic these days.
Didn’t you know that?
Some of you still don’t get that this isn’t a reward for troublemakers but a plan of attack for policing the situation. It’s easier for cops to patrol a street than to control a crowd. Don’t bring race or class into this, especially when you claim they don’t matter (JMOC). The issue is one of simple math: a more even cops-to-jerks ratio makes for less chaos.
The club owners or city can call this plan whatever they want but the underlying problem is still there. A bunch of mostly young people who for the most part have been drinking, some to the point of being drunk. This problem is made synergistically worse as the clubs catering to these young drinkers are packed in the same geographical area. The club owners have direct responsibility for this problem as they serve these patrons and don’t cut them off when they are obviously drunk, or these problems wouldn’t manifest themselves outside of the clubs. The club owners do not have some God given right to do as they damn well please, and should be held accountable legally for allowing their staff serving after someone is obviously drunk. Also, the reality is that some, if not many of patrons in these clubs, are novice drinkers, and don’t realize they are wasted until they have already slammed down several drinks in succession. They have not learned the effects of drinking hard booze or how to pace themselves, and the club owners could care less if they have not learned this yet. I say get rid of the clubs if they are going to continue their strident, self righteous, arrogant attitude. As far as Santana Row goes I say just give it some time. I have been over there on Fridays and Saturdays to get a cup of coffee, and you can see the nightclub situation is festering there too. It is only a matter of time before they catch up with the downtown problems. It is time to quit blaming the police, or residents of these areas who want some peace, for the nightclub problems, and start enforcing already existing laws on the club owners and the employees. Just because they are in a ‘downtown’ area does not give them more of a right to cause problems than the right of the residents to have a safe and peaceful neighborhood. I don’t want San Jose to be another San Francisco, or we would all be living in San Francisco.
Dave 25 and Tom Mchenry,
Why haven’t you addresse these questions? The bomb concerts and music in the park concerts cause alot of problems. How come they can do this and you say nothing?
#25 Dave
You are so right.
Last night I arrived back at San Pedro Square after an evening at the San Francisco Symphony about 11.45 p.m. to a scene from Dante’s Inferno here. The Taste was packed and hundreds were waiting to be admitted in a line that stretched around the block. San Pedro Street was full of underaged kids and intoxicated revelers and all of this activity spilled over into the city car park where numerous drinking parties were going on, with the usual broken glass and puddles of urine everywhere. I passed a couple who had obviously been dining in a nice restaurant hurrying to their car with a look of panic on their faces. There wasn’t a police officer in sight in the car park or anywhere on the block. Soft closing is not a solution to this state of affairs. We have a very real and serious problem downtown at night that is out of control already. This situation needs to be cleaned up before there is any talk of extended hours or allowing any more nightclubs to open.
I say give soft closings a try. It’s got to be better than the current plan, where the storm troopers descend on downtown at 1:30 and round everyone up, even those doing nothing wrong. On some nights the Gestapo comes out earlier. Of course johnmichael o’connor is correct in saying that it’s the PC crowd’s fault because we can’t engage in “profiling.” Therefore, everybody’s guilty.
Jack tells a story about a city garage where there’s no cop in sight at 2345 as people drink, piss and puke out of control. Yet at closing time the cops put on the riot gear and chase everybody out of downtown.
Anybody else see a problem here???
A low-key yet visible police presence in the earlier part of the evening would reduce the need for the late night Gestapo crackdown that we have to put up with now.
The police need to change their strategy.
Since none of you seem to get it, let me explain this for the zillionth time.
Back in 1991 or so, there existed a raging live music scene on South First Street – you had Cactus, Ajax, Marsugi’s and F/X all right there on one corner. You could go down there every single night and have a choice of which bands to go check out, whether it was rock, metal, punk, acid jazz, pop, roots, Americana, grunge, blues, “alternative” or whatever. It was one gigantic raging scene, a familial type of setting based on music and music alone. Everyone knew everyone else. It was a true underground music counterculture by every definition of that word. There were no stabbings, no shootings, no fistfights spilling out into the street, no mass amounts of teenagers causing problems because they can’t get into the clubs, no public urination on a grand scale, no need for police helicopters or six thousand cops with a knee-jerk reaction closing all the streets off.
Then the crooked property owners and landlords—with the city’s full blessing—realized that they could make a hell of a lot more money opening up testosterone-filled meatmarket nightclubs instead, which is true. So they did, and the live music scene imploded as a result, and what happened? Stabbings, shootings, fistfights spilling out into the street, teenagers causing problems, public urination, police helicopters and six thousand cops with a knee-jerk reaction closing all the streets off. Fancy that.
And now, fifteen years later, you have the ooks at city hall complaining that there’s too many testosterone-filled meatmarket clubs downtown and not enough live music. Gee, ya think so?
All the people who run the problem clubs in question – Taste, Cuccini, Vault, Vivid, [insert your favorite ultra lounge here] will admit that the guys who go to these places are looking to either go home with a woman or get in a fight. And since they won’t end up going home with a woman, they get in a fight.
And the majority of the problems stem from the people who can’t into the clubs because, simply, what many teenagers do these days is cruise around, show off their car stereos, look for women and look for a fight. That’s just what they do. Not everyone, but a lot.
And the people who blame the police are not “blaming the police for the nightclub problems” like the other person said. They’re blaming the police for their knee-jerk, ‘us against them’ reaction to it all. “We’re going to take back downtown,” one officer recently said. “We’re the biggest gang in San Jose,” another one said once. “What are you doing here? Why aren’t you in Santana Row,” one cop told a friend of mine. This happens all the time downtown. All the time. I can’t tell you how many “upstanding” citizens have told me that they stopped going downtown because of the police presence. If you make an obvious effort to drive everyone away, then only the thugs are going to be left, and that’s exactly what’s happened.
As always, it’s all the bad apples that have screwed it up for everyone else. All the clubs and bars downtown that AREN’T causing any problems are now getting systematically screwed with as a result. For example, if I walked into Cinebar and placed a turntable on the bar and played a vinyl LP, the police would shut the bar down because they don’t have an entertainment license. I’m not exaggerating. That would probably happen. The situation has become that ridiculous. Go ask around – you’ll find out.
When the neighborhood was all rooted around live music and underground counterculture, it was just so much better. That is, it was actually a neighborhood. The other poster who mentioned the SoFA era had it dead on. But no more. The RDA wants downtown to be a homogeneous yuppie Disneyland instead.
Horwedel is a disgrace to the city of San Jose. He effectively ruined and belittle the city. Height restriction was further called for downtown SJ. That’s what torpedoed the growth of the downtown area. He’s not a very smart individual, period! He needs to be booted out office once for the city’s wealth- being immediately! He’s in favor of sprawl and congestion. San Jose will be very unhealthy as the result of him staying in planning commision for even one second longer. He’s no good!
We get it sick in the head. There’s just no point in restating it. The gang-banger clubs and low-life clientele have screwed it up for everybody. We get that.
The problem is that the police tactics are just making it worse for any law abiding folks who get caught in the crossfire.
To 28 and 29,
Being of Jewish origin and having relatives in concentration camps I resent you comparing the downtown situation to a “Gestapo state”. The Gestapo was a state sanctioned secret police force, engaged in terrorism, in which the Gestapo was free to torture, kill and commit atrocities, without accountability, anyone who stood in the way of Hitler. The San Jose Police who have to deal with the drunks downtown are no more the Gestapo than the drunks are akin to the Jews in Nazi Germany. Your analogy is empty, ignorant, inflammatory rhetoric. If the police are in riot gear downtown there is a reason. Do you see them in riot gear in other parts of San Jose?? The answer is “NO”. The reason they are in riot gear downtown is because they don’t want to get injured or killed and want to go home safe. They are dealing with drunk individuals that are so intoxicated as to be beyond reason and are out of control. Why do the police have any obligation to get injured? Why are the bar owners allowing alcohol to be served to these people. Frankly, you couldn’t pay me enough to do what the police officers do downtown in dealing with these drunken fools. Under your scenario the police are the root of the problems, and therefore we can extrapolate that if we reduced the police or even eliminated the police downtown we would suddenly have a peaceful and safe downtown. Call me foolish, but I don’t think this would be the result. Please quit blaming the SJPD and making them the scapegoats. It is really getting old, and I hope the city council has the guts to do the right thing rather than continue to try to pacify everyone and continue down the wrong road.
you have it backwards, #19. You identify the criminal, not the economic status. Guaranteed when you identify the criminal, which is easier than you might think, he/she is more likely to be poor than rich or middle class. He/she is also more likely to be functionally illiterate. Frat boys and college athletes looking for girls gone wild excepted.
JD #21, yeah, I knew that; but as old as I am it still rankles. The have bleeding heart know-nothings like # 19.
Nam Turk #22. I guess I wasn’t clear enough. race and class do matter, but class is a better indicator of a problem person than race. e.g. a balck dentist’s kid or a white redneck in a trailer’s kid (are there any other kind?). Who’s more likely to be a problem?
Race isn’t the major issue, just as religion isn’t the major issue in Northern Ireland. We have been taught that race is the issue, just as they have been taught that religion is the issue. The issue is $$$, who has it and who doesn’t. It’s easier to hate a black person or a latino, if you’re white—or a white person if you’re black or latino—than it is to hate a poor person. Poor doesn’t show up as readily as skin color. So, skin color makes it simple for even the dumbest of folk to focus on who they want to blame for their plight in life.
But if anyone ran the numbers on the situation of criminals as a whole, I’d bet the farm that race would play a far smaller role than socio-economic status.
If RDA really wants downtown to be a homogeneous disneyland as # 30 ended, boy have they failed. It’s thugs, drunk teenboys loking for trouble if they can’t get laid, vatos locos with stereos pounding, hip hoppers with Glocks and SUVs to run over people with, and other n’er-do-wells. So, basically RDA has failed on all counts.
Maybe that’s why Chuckie wants to give it another go in North S Jay.
I just hope the police don’t enforce the law during the daytime. I love riding my bicycle on downtown sidewalks during the daytime. Several instances I’ve nearly hit pedestrians, a few times I have and many times I scare people. People always give me dirty looks. I guess you could call me a real jerk. It is probably better for me to ride my bike, then to get behind the wheel of a car.
#22, you are right on the money. the clubs will lose money on this proposition- they will have to keep staff on the clock, while not making any money from drinks. the whole plan is to sober people up before they get pushed out on the streets and to lessen the number of people on the street at any one time, making things easier for pd and lessening the yuck factor- urination and vomiting in the beloved san pedro garage.
if this plan succeeds, then the whole vibe on the street changes, the police are happy, customers are happy, and better customers might come back. If it doesn’t, the worse thing that can happen is that it’s back to the status quo.
Dave:
I’m sorry if my gestapo refrences offended you. I’ll admit it was a bit of an exageration although it’s a shame everybody gets easily offended these days.
I don’t excuse the bars or their patrons for bad behavior, but the police make a bad situation worse by their heavy-handed tactics. That’s a fact and I’m sorry if you don’t agree. I live near downtown and have seen this first hand. And I resent being forced blocks out of my way when all I’m doing is trying to walk home after dinner.
The cops should be enforcing existing laws when they see violations. But Jack reports that at there is rampant partying in the San Pedro garage before midnight and there’s no cops to be seen. Why are the cops not there? Why wait till closing time?
I’d love to see the thug clubs shut down, but in the mean time I’d also like to see more even handed law enforcement, all the time.
#33,
You still have not told us what the criminal profile is. A profile means that an individual (you) can tell who is a criminal, or have a very high probability of being a criminal, by simply looking at them.
What is this criminal profile that you; “…overwhelming evidence that the profile of the troublemakers is a narrow one”, claim to know?
Does Paris Hilton fit the profile? She looks sleazy to me.
30. I was there durring the SOFA Era.. Though I think when I went F/X was called The Usual.
I’d go everyweekend to dance to the eighties. It was AWSOME. Then after dancing we would head over to Cafe Matisse.
They also had a coffee shop called CAFE BABLYON which I absolutely loved. A friend of mine was one of the owners. He told me they had to close because the city wouldn’t give them a music permit or a permit to put tables and chairs on the sidewalk. He said they eventually had to close because they weren’t making enough money which was affected by the fact that the city wouldn’t give them the permits to expand to bring more people in.
If that whole artsy, fartsy, music scene was back. Then I would be too.
Jack-
Inquire with the Planning Dept about what type of environmental review they conducted for this “pilot” program.
A good land use attorney (like Mayor Reed?) will tell you that unless they comply with the CA Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) that the program can be challenged in Court because it conveys an entitlement to property owners based on a specifc use. If there is no CEQA review with an analysis and disclosure of the “project’s” impacts prior to approval by City Council the enactment of the program can be invalidated by the Courts.
Dave, you’re so pissed off about my unfortuante “gestapo” reference that you completely miss my point, or try to ignore it. You say “This explains why you think that if the current downtown situation is ok with you, then everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and should just live with it.”
I do NOT think that the current downtown situation is OK. I never said that.
Let’s recap:
I referred to Jack’s #27 post, saying “Jack tells a story about a city garage where there’s no cop in sight at 2345 as people drink, piss and puke out of control.” At no point do I say that’s OK. In fact, I agree that’s a problem. Jack goes on to say, referring to the situation in the CITY-OWNED garage, ” There wasn’t a police officer in sight in the car park or anywhere on the block.”
Get it? the cops are not doing their job early on, nipping the problems in the bud. They should shut down the party scene in the CITY-OWNED garage. Then they might be able to ease up later, instead of breaking out the riot gear.
Sorry about that gestapo remark, but let’s stop the flaming and stick to the point. I lived in New York for 20 years and can assure you that the NYPD don’t pull this riot gear crap in Greenwich Village or Times Square every weekend.
One more time, then. The current downtown situation is NOT, REPEAT, NOT ok with me. Got that? But these heavy-handed police tactics are not OK with me either. Clear now?
Hugh and journalist are on the mark. I rarely go downtown, not because of the punks and puke, but because of the heavy handed police presence.
Downtown has become a sad place in which the pumped up police sqaure off with the pumped up wanabe gang members. The police action or inaction prompts the nice people not to come downtown.
So then when a few nice people do come downtown all they see are angry cops and thugs. That is the vicious circle that downtown has become. Cops treat everyone like criminals, nice people leave, only thugs show up; then you need more cops. it just goes round and round never getting solved.
Used to go downtown
troublemakers of all racial/ethnic backgrounds need to be arrested and incarcerated, withou Rick Calender or other so-called spokerpersons for one ethnic group or another claiming bias. If you did the crime, shut up and take it like a man.
But in this PC world, SJPD is hamstrung from Chief Davis down to the latest recruit on the street for fear that some low-rent Jesse Jackson will second guess them in the media.
That said, the current tactic of treating everyone like a criminal starting at 1:00 a.m. cannot pass muster. Too many law-abiding citizens have complained about the heavy-handed tactics heaped on all and sundry. Cops should deal effectively with the bad guys, and they should keep their batons off non-violators; nor should they herd everyone willy-nilly out of town.
The current system for dealing with downtown revelers just ain’t workin’. Since blood alcohol levels continue to rise for an hour or so after one stops drinking, a soft closing would put drunker people on the streets than a hard closing does.
To 36,
Taking a part from your post you stated to me, “I’m sorry if my gestapo refrences offended you. I’ll admit it was a bit of an exageration although it’s a shame everybody gets easily offended these days.” I assure you I am not a politically correct person and if something is said in a humorous light I am the last one to get offended. What I said is that I resent your literal comparison of the San Jose Police to the Gestapo. To do so is to degrade our own honorable police dept and lessen the memory of the atrocities commited by the actual Gestapo. It wasn’t just “a bit of an exageration”, it was a grossly inaccurate lie. You stated “it’s a shame everybody gets easily offended these days” shows your mentality that if people don’t agree with you then they are the all wrong in how they think, and your rights are greater than theirs. This explains why you think that if the current downtown situation is ok with you, then everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and should just live with it.
I disagree with your statement “So in other words, if the police enforce existing laws they are accused of being heavy handed.” The correct statement is “if they treat everybody like a criminal, they are heavy-handed.”
OK, Dave, since I’m not getting through to you, please see what #42 and #43 have to say:
42: “So then when a few nice people do come downtown all they see are angry cops and thugs. That is the vicious circle that downtown has become. Cops treat everyone like criminals, nice people leave, only thugs show up; then you need more cops. it just goes round and round never getting solved.”
43: “That said, the current tactic of treating everyone like a criminal starting at 1:00 a.m. cannot pass muster. Too many law-abiding citizens have complained about the heavy-handed tactics heaped on all and sundry. Cops should deal effectively with the bad guys, and they should keep their batons off non-violators; nor should they herd everyone willy-nilly out of town.”
It’s not about the ratio of police officers to civilians, it’s about the tactics the police use. Here, they treat everybody downtown like criminals so that the PC crowd can’t accuse them of discrimination. San Jose doesn’t need more police, they need better police management. NYPD ain’t perfect, but they know how to deal with nightlife without treating innocent civilians like criminals, for the most part.
Hugh,
Since I apparently don’t possess the intelligence or intellectual savvy necessary for you to “get through to me”, could you define exactly how the police are “treating everyone like a criminal”? I am always wary of blanket statements, but perhaps if you can describe how all the police are treating everyone like a criminal it would add clarity to your accusation.
Dave,
How long have you been a police officer?
Hugh,
I think there is an interesting, if not telling, paradox in your previous post in which you state, “I don’t excuse the bars or their patrons for bad behavior, but the police make a bad situation worse by their heavy-handed tactics.” You then go on to state “The cops should be enforcing existing laws when they see violations….the cops are not doing their job early on, nipping the problems in the bud.” Hugh, I’m afraid you are the one who does not get it. You put the police officer in the impossible position of not being heavy handed (ie Gestapo) and then insist that they enforce existing laws. So in other words, if the police enforce existing laws they are accused of being heavy handed. If they do nothing and then deal with the out of control drunks they are heavy handed. It appears you have put the officers in a complete no-win situation. If the police were to do what you suggest and “enforce existing laws”, a very high percentage of the downtown crowd could be arrested for drunk in public, drunk driving, urinating in public, fighting drinking under age, furnishing alcohol to minors, and numerous other penal and vehicle code violations. Then the police could go after the bar owners and “enforce existing laws” with them. You are asking the police to create the situation you complain about; a police state. Problem is, Hugh, there are not enough police officers in your scenario to make a dent by enforcing existing laws. There are relatively very few officers for the thousands of bar patrons on the weekend so your solution is dead on arrival. Lastly, with you being from New York City I’m sure you realize that they have about 40,000 sworn police officers for 8 million residents or an approximate per capita ratio of 1 officer for every 200 residents. San Jose has about 1,300 sworn police officers for about a city of 1 million residents, or an approximate ratio of 1 officer for every 770 residents. In other words, New York City where you lived and remarked regarding the police,“NYPD don’t pull this riot gear crap in Greenwich Village or Times Square every weekend”, has a police force of almost 4 times per capita what San Jose does (that sounds like much more of a Gestapo situation, to borrow your venacular). How about if you lead the battle cry to increase the SJPD from it’s current 1,300 officers to about 5,000 to bring it on par with New York. Maybe the citizens of this city don’t want it turned into a mini New York. San Jose is more than able to survive on it’s own merit and charm although I’m sure we are not worthy of holding New York City’s jockstrap. Clear now?
J. Walker,
I’m not. That is about as lame as me asking how long have you been a criminal because we have a difference of opinion. As I stated in a prior post, you could not pay me enough to deal with the drunks downtown. It is just that I would rather have our downtown as a family environment rather than have it taken over by those who want to party and suck what few city resources we have away from our neighborhoods. I’ll ask you though what I asked Hugh, please tell me exactly what the police are doing. According to you, “Cops treat everyone like criminals” so please back this accusation up with facts.
Jack,
Did you read the article in today’s Mercury News? The City is considering getting rid of free parking to address the state of the City’s garages. Thanks to the drunks, vandels, and trouble makers, I think this in an idea I’d support!
My last 2 cents on this issue. It has been my own experience to be very wary of those that make blanket accusations or stereotypes of a particicular group of people. Several of the prior posts have made extremely serious accusations agains the San Jose Police Department regarding the bar scene downtown, stating that “the police treat everyone like a criminal or a thug”. My own personal opinion, and I stress my opinion, is that blanket statements condemning an entire group or organization tend to come from those so strident in their own beliefs, or feel so strongly their own rights come before all others, that they are blinded by objective facts. Although I feel the bar scene downtown is not in the best interest of San Jose, and the drunks, thugs, and some bar owners are responsible for this more than the police, I have never made a blanket statement that “all bar patrons are out of control drunks/thugs” or “all bar owners are irresponsible” because that would not be true. Those that make, again in my own opinion only, blanket accusations against the police, are doing more harm to their argument than good in swaying public opinion. It reminds me of the Critical Mass bike ride through San Francisco, and how the bikers try to shove their own beliefs down everyone’s throat, and make anybody that stands in their way responsible for creating the gridlock rather than take personal responsiblity. Thanks for this forum to express my feelings on this subject.
Dave—you are indeed the one who doesn’t get it. From your posts, you sound like someone who has never even been downtown.
Many of the police who occupy downtown and block the streets off are not your friendly, neighborhood Barney Fifes—many, not all , but many, have a complete thug mindset themselves: “Us against them.” It’s not that they’re stupid—they just honestly don’t know how to deal with a neighborhood that’s become a raging ghetto and crackhead Mecca past 11pm or so.
Whoever originated the whole “24-hour, walkable, liveable downtown” picture was living in some fantasy world somewhere. That just ain’t gonna happen. At least not in my lifetime. As soon as ANYTHING opens up 24/7 downtown, I can tell you right now exactly the kind of element that will begin hanging out there.
Everybody on every side of this equation—left, right and sideways—has failed in every sense of that word. You see the police chief constantly saying stuff like, “We don’t have the resources” to properly deal with issues. And then you walk anywhere downtown and see scenarios where six police cars are present to arrest one person for something. If a homeless dude is freaking out at the lightrail station, you’ll probably see five cop cars, three paramedics, a paddy wagon, a few sheriff cars and who knows what else. It’s hopeless. If you get a ticket on the lightrail, five security guards are there instantly. Why do you need five security guards to take care of that? The “profiling” arguement is a moot point. Since the downtown cops don’t have an answer themselves, they just decide to screw with EVERYBODY.
The parking lot at Jack ‘n the Box, for example, has been a Mecca for gangbangers, weapons and post-midnight thugs for years now, and for some reason you never see/read anything about it. The “police blotter” is a downright joke.
Instead, you see stories about raising the parking garage fees from $3 to $5 or opening a club until 3am instead of 2am, like that’s going to make any freakin’ difference at all. Or you have hundreds of thousands of tax-payer dollars going to some idiot consultant in Santa Monica to tell us what to do with our parking situation. Go out in downtown any day of the week and count the number of brand new white “parking compliance” jeeps that drive around all day and write tickets for people parking thirty seconds after their time is up. Or all the particular blocks where it’s now illegal to park after 2am, resulting in all the bar employees getting tickets because they don’t get off work until after 2am.
My journo friends have all told me that you can’t write a story about any of this because the club owners will never go on the record in a newspaper blasting the police tactics because then the cops will come down on the clubs even harder. They’re right. I’ve seen it happen.
None of this breeds confidence or optimism or respect for authority or government or anything for that matter.
Later.
No free parking = empty downtown
Drunks, vandals, fights, urine filled garages= people are fed up and going elsewhere on the weekends, and evenings……
“All I can ask is where is a thug officers when you need one?”
Well, if this occurred last September/October it’s quite likely the officers were with Chief Davis breaking fast in observance of Ramadan.
Last week my neighbor told me that SJPD will soon be broadcasting the call to prayer on squad car loudspeakers.
Anyone else hear of this? I thought my neighbor was crazy but given that we’re at tolerance ground zero I thought I’d check here first.
56 – Sorry, Novice, the rest of us don’t hear the same voices you do.
#50 said: “It reminds me of the Critical Mass bike ride through San Francisco, and how the bikers try to shove their own beliefs down everyone’s throat, and make anybody that stands in their way responsible for creating the gridlock rather than take personal responsiblity. ” That rather perfectly describes the PAC crowd, as well. They want to shove Bldg. 25 down our throats, and have made Lowe’s pay $200k to tear it down.
Dave,
Take a tip from Selena – skip the Sharks games and attend parades instead.
“Selena Mayfield, 28, of San Jose, brought her husband and three children to the parade “to show support and to teach my kids that being gay is not wrong or bad. Everybody’s different.”
Their daughter, Sara, 9, who wore a rainbow lei and crown, said she liked the parade “because it’s really colorful. It’s different than the Christmas parade. And you get a lot of free stuff.”
Crowds lining the five-block parade route along Market Street saw a variety of floats and marching groups representing different causes, including the El Camino Reelers, a gay square-dancing club and the Santa Clara County Leather Association, which member Ronnie Grigsby described as “a group of people with like minds who enjoy exploring different parts of sexuality and like pushing the envelope.”
http://origin.mercurynews.com/ci_6112271?nclick_check=1
Nothing says family values and brings a family together quite like spending an afternoon exposing your kids up close and personal to those “pushing the envelope”.
#55 J. Walker,
No, I was not out ” really late with your young kids”. I was walking back with them after a Shark’s game, probably about 10:15 or so when we had to wade through this crap. I’m kind of naive though, do things get worse downtown after this time, or should nobody with kids park anywhere downtown because this is the wrong place for a family to be? Thanks for helping me out on this.
Dave,
I’m really sorry your children had to be exposed to those disgusting sights. My fiance and I avoid going to the downtown area at night. On the weekends we might go to a play, or something but we make sure, when possible, to catch one during the day. I too am sick of the garbage I see and hear down there.
If we want to go to a good place to eat, we head to Half Moon Bay, Santa Cruz, or to a place in San Jose that is NOT located in downtown.
We quit going to the Camera 12 Theater because the young kids that go there talk threw the whole movie, kick your seat, or continuously flip their blinking cell phone open and shut. A real annoying experience, and one I refuse to keep paying $10.00 a person to endure! So, I go to the Camera 7 in Campbell, or to the one in Saratoga.
As to the Police being thugs, I say that’s crap. I see these drunks, and youthful touble makers screaming things at Police that in the small town I grew up in back East, would have gotten them a sharp jab in the ribs with a baton. I guess that’s why my hometown has such a low crime rate, even WITH Indian run casinos there. These proud native Indians do a fantastic job of keeping their businesses responsible to the public, while employing half the town, and running green businesses. So San Jose’s irresponsible business owners can keep their drunken sloppy customers, I’ll spend my money elsewhere…
To 61,
I am not going to “skip the Sharks game” as you said I should do. We love Sharks games and will continue to attend, just park in a different place and eat somewhere besides downtown. By the way, I have explained to my kids what it means to be gay or lesbian and to respect everyone’s rights. You sound a little homophobic, but that is your right too.
To 60,
I am not too familiar with the PAC crowd you refer to. Are they also blocking ambulances and fire trucks from saving a life as those in Critical Mass do and create chaos? If so, I completely agree with you.
There’s never a shortage of people on this board who are oh so eager to call you a homophobe or a racist at the drop of a hat.
One can only imagine the intense release of endorphins that must occur in the garden variety bay area ‘type’ when the opportunity to call someone a racist/sexist/homophobe arises.
Can’t win an argument or someone’s point of view makes you uncomfortable because it challenges your koolaid based worldview? The solution’s easy – call ‘em a racist!
Labeling someone a racist/homophobe and the accompanying rush from from instantly attaining temporary moral high ground nirvana without so much as having a single synapse fire or measurable brainwave activity must be irresistable indeed.
No, # 62, they don’t block ambulances. But they do take THEIR passioin and shove it down OUR throats with OUR $$.
Novice: If homophobia is not your stance, why did you even bring up the pride parade? Are you coming from the exact opposite perspective, because you sure came off as sarcastic. Don’t bait people into criticizing your [apparent] words of intolerance just to spout of about political correctness. This isn’t high school, so quit the games.
#63 Novice,
My deepest apologies. I did go back and read your prior post, #61, and I still came away with my initial impression that you have a problem with some of the gay pride parade participants. By the way, I happen to agree with Selena.
Dave lamented that “I’m kind of naive though, do things get worse downtown after this time, or should nobody with kids park anywhere downtown because this is the wrong place for a family to be? Thanks for helping me out on this.”
And I responded with a suggestion to attend parades that I thought might be more suitable for bay area families.
And for that you accuse me of intolerance?
Why should anyone object to or make light of anyone that takes their kids to see a parade of Ronnie Grigsby and his fellow Santa Clara County Leathermen promote “exploring different parts of sexuality” and pushing the envelope.”
In fact, I think it’s such a great idea that I find it incredulous that Ronald Grigsby hasn’t been invited to speak at San Jose local elementary school assemblies.
You got the wrong guy Nam.
PS. Here’s another one of our colorful parades that bay area families can enjoy. Check photos 3 and 4 to know that it’s good fun for the whole family.
http://zombietime.com/how_berkeley_can_you_be/
To #51/varicose veins,
Ok, I’ll admit I don’t get it and I live in a vacuum. You have correctly gleamed from my posts I have never been downtown as you asserted and I am ashamed to say admit the gig is up. I have, however, been to the Arena many times for Sharks games parking in the downtown lots. I realize this does not qualify me for the esteemed downtown bar crowd, and I am not worthy of such an honor, nor should I be free to comment on this issue. I apologize for my past digressions in prior posts.
I made the mistake this past hockey season of taking my young children to a Shark’s game and parking in the garage on Market St. On the walk back from the Arena they got a real cultural treat of seeing a guy urinating against the wall of the Brit, getting to hear the f*ck word spoken loudly by a drunk guy within easy earshot of my kids, and walking around piles of voluminous vomit. I viewed this as a sort of rite of passage for my 6 and 8 year old and it was a proud moment for all concerned. They could hardly wait to tell mom when we got home. However, what I didn’t see, were any “thug” police officers. I didn’t see any police officers forcing the male at gunpoint to open his barn door, withdraw his ding-dong and urinate in public, nor were there officers using their batons on a drunk and beating him within an inch of his life until he complied with their demands to say f*ck so my kids could easily hear this word, nor officers forcibly inducing a poor innocent soul to do their best Linda Blair impression and vomit a chunky pile on the sidewalk lest he or she be subjected to electrocution by multiple officers with tasers. All I can ask is where is a thug officers when you need one?
Dave,
I did not post that the police are thugs; they simply do not treat people very well downtown. They constantly are very agressive towards a large number of visitors. To see this you should come downtown on thursday and go to the music in the park. The tubes are playing so it should be a well rounded crowd.
But the police will still be there to eye ball you and move you along.
to have seen the things you say you have seen you must have been out really late with your young kids.
Who said the ‘Pride’ parade wasn’t peaceful?
Who’s comparing the ‘Pride’ parade to throwing up drunks?
Who’s comparing the nightclub situation to the ‘Pride’ parade?
That’s some comprehension and logic exhibition you’re putting on there Dave.
Lemme throw a dart and guess that you moved here from somewhere else.
Somewhere else that you believe is less tolerant and now you’re desperate to make up for lost tolerance time and the imagined tolerance transgressions of the unenlightened and unwashed rabble in your former community.
Well Dave, let me tell you, you are off to a great start! You’ve accrued *major* tolerance points for taking the whole family to the ‘Pride’ parade. Brava!
However I’d be remiss if I didn’t inform you that tolerance opportunities are a bit sparser down here.
Oh sure, you can attend the occasional illegal immigration rallies and say ‘Si, Se Puede!’ and ‘You are safe’ in spanish and other cool things like our esteemed vice mayor Dave Cortese.
You can even do a 2 minute drill on Channel 26 when the council is voting on some pandering, compassionate posturing, utterly meaningless ceremonial proclamation supporting gay marriage or some such.
You can even fast during Ramadan like San Jose’s top cop, Chief Davis.
But other than that the real PC action is up north.
My advice to you is to keep your eye on sfgate.com for the date of the next SF ‘Pride’ parade. Who knows, you and your family may even really luck out, catch sight of a Harry Hay/NAMBLA advocate type or two and score a veritable daily double of tolerance points.
Best of luck in your quest Dave. May your cup of koolaid always runneth over.
Hi Novice,
Actually, I am not from somewhere else. I am a 4th generation Californian, and I was born and raised in San Francisco, and the surrounding Bay Area. I don’t attend events to be politically correct. I guess in your world people are only motivated to attend cultural community events to be politically correct. Speak for yourself maybe, but that is total bullshit. You are an extremely bitter and cynical person if this is how you think. You told me to keep my eye open for the next Gay Pride event in San Francisco to attend, and if I am really lucky I can take my family to a Nambla event on the same day. Are you so stupid and narcissistic to not realize how much of a homphobe you come off to be? You are stereotyping gays being part of the same crowd that makes up Nambla, and that where you find one you will naturally find the other. You are a very prejudiced, small minded, intolerant, closet bigot who would be a much better fit in one of the intolerant communities you told me I am from. Anybody in Nambla belongs in prison because they are pedophiles. Gay people are not necessarily pedophiles any more or less than a straight person may be. By the way, thanks for educating us with who the leader of NAMBLA is and where they meet. You sound much more familiar with, and follow this sick organization, much closer than the rest of us for whatever reason.
[Your twisting of what I actually wrote is bordering on the surreal!]
Harry Hay (April 7, 1912, Worthing, England – October 24, 2002) was a leader of the gay rights movement in the United States, known for founding the Mattachine Society in 1950 and the Radical Faeries in 1979.
…
In the early 1980s Hay protested the exclusion of the North American Man Boy Love Association from participation in the LGBT movement. Though he was never a member of NAMBLA, he gave a number of speeches at its meetings, and in 1986 he marched in the Los Angeles Pride Parade, from which the organization had been banned, with a sign reading “NAMBLA walks with me.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hay
Isn’t it something that a prominent leader of the gay rights movement advocated on behalf of pedophiles – yet hardly anyone even knows the story? Even those that grew up in SF like you weren’t aware.
How can that be you ask?
It’s simple really. Just another choice example of extreme bias from our beloved koolaid dispensing leftist newsmedia.
But it gets better.
In 2001 Nancy Pelosi marches in a ‘Pride’ parade with NAMBLA advocate Harry Hay.
When Nancy Met Harry
“If men having sex with children is “abhorrent behavior” then it seems it would be quite logical for a United States Congresswoman to stand up and protest the presence of one of its leading advocates having a place of honor in a civic parade—a parade in which she herself would be marching mere steps behind him.”
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10450
Just another day in Frisco, huh Dave?
Hey, Dave, weren’t you going to stop posting several comments ago? (See post 50.)
Jack,
I understand that this blogg is here for open, honest communication of ideas and thoughts but these constant personal battles are getting really old. They have nothing to do with the important topics posted, and are really making this blogg undesirable to read. This type of behavior shouldn’t be allowed. Can anything be done to keep people on topic?
If you gentlemen want to hold a pissing match, why don’t you take it off line and email one another PRIVATELY?
To Not a Novice,
Yes, you are correct, I thought it was going to be my last post on this issue. I changed my mind however, and decided to respond to a few subsequent posts. Last time I checked, our first amendment rights still existed. The hatred and contempt displayed by Novice towards the Gay and Lesbian society deserved some type of response in my opinion. I am still rather amazed that someone in this area in the 21st century lumps gays and pedophiles together. Hopefully, you and others are just as outraged by these ignorant statements.
#74 Kathleen
Thank you for your comment. I understand your frustration (I feel the same at times) but we really don’t want to censor or disallow comments for being off the subject. I wish people would stick to discussing matters at hand seriously without engaging in personal attacks. We want everyone to be able to express themselves freely here, as long as they do not violate our very few rules concerning sexist and racist comments, advertising, etc.
Novice,
The Gay Pride parade in San Jose, to my knowledge, has always been a peaceful event. The participants in the parade have obtained permits and follow the applicable laws. Nobody is forced to be an observer if they don’t want to attend. I have taken my family to this parade, as well as San Jose’s Christmas Parade and Veteran’s Day Parade. We had a great time at all of them, and at no point did any of the participant’s try to impose their beliefs on the parade crowd. They were very peaceful events. Contrast this with the drunks downtown who are too ripped to care less about anyone else’s rights. Those that go downtown for a good dinner, theater, symphony, etc are forced to deal with these drunks, and the irresponsible bar owners who served these drunks are equally to blame. In my opinion, any comparison of the Gay Pride Day parade, to the nightclub situation downtown, is way out of the ballpark.
Dear Kathleen of the proud Indians and their green casinos, please know that what I do here at SJI is nothing less than my Raison d’être, my civic duty to enlighten and help brainwashed leftist robots like Dave.
If I can break through and reach just one koolaid impaired liberal all my efforts here will have been rewarded.
In closing, let me leave you with this passage.
“And then the Lord sayeth unto Novice “Go forth and layeth the smackdown most mightily upon the blue pagans with great folding chairs of truth”.
So it is written, so it shall be done.
#76- Some of us don’t find personal attacks on others entertaining, or enlightening. Many people I know have stopped reading this blogg for this very reason. If that matters to you, you will refrain from any further need to preach your beliefs whilst attacking others. If it doesn’t matter to you then by all means continue on your quest for the Holy Grail, alone….
#77 – If you’re a hip and urbane metrosexual and want to attend a ‘Pride’ parade, then by all means knock yourself out.
But we’re talking about someone who takes his young children to ‘Pride’ parades of Ronnie Grigsby* types – and for questioning such a lack of sense and disregard for children you accuse me of a personal attack?
Absolute lunacy.
* Ronnie Grigsby of the Santa Clara County Leather Association who describe the association as “a group of people with like minds who enjoy exploring different parts of sexuality and like pushing the envelope.”
#78- For such an intelligent man, you are missing the point. I personally don’t see your need to bully people around to your way of thinking as acceptable.
These bloggs have topics designed for conversation. I don’t see Gay Pride Parades in Jack’s topic, nor do I see how you parent your children or which place you take them in the topic either…. Do you?
Dave,
Sound like a loving, caring Dad. Your children are very lucky to have someone who cares so much for their City, community, and well being.
I don’t think this blogg is intended for personal attacks. I think it is designed for respectful, open, and intelligent exchanges of ideas. I know you have a right to defend yourself against personal attacks, and I support your right to do so. I’m just asking Novice to follow the intention and spirit of the blogg, and in no way mean to judge either of you. I just would like to see respect, and tolerance for differing views.
Ok. phew.. that was a close one… but much better now.
I had to dash to the other room to get to my Channel 26 hurl bucket in time.
Do any of the conservatives that hang out around here ever feel like they’re in a real life version of “Invasion of the Body Snatchers”?
Where they are the only ones who haven’t had a diversity-tolerance pod place outside their bedroom window?
Novice #82 and others who don’t know me:
I have no problem with diversity. Unfortunately the word has been hijacked and is now a code word for the mindless acceptance of bad behavior by those who choose not to conform to the norms of polite society.
When you add the race card to diversity, it gets us all into real trouble. Gangbangers, thugs, hiphoppers, vatos locos, lowriders,biker trash, etc. don’t behave the way they do because they’re black, hispanic, asian, or white. They behave that way because it’s their peer-generated culture. And it clashes with the majority culture.
So, when a HipHop crowd descends upon SJ due to a HipHop act arriving in town, the cops aren’t stopping mostly black people from the almost entirely black crowd because they’re black. They’re stopping them becuase the either have or are about to break the law. The PC/diversity/call everyone a racist crowd just doesn’t grasp the distinction.
When a parade of 140 decible stereo lowrider gangsters leave King & Story for W. Santa Clara Street to irritate the rest of us, they are not stopped because they’re Mexican/brown/Hispanic… They are stopped for flouting the law and disturbing the peace of the community, and various and sundry other violations.
When they fire off twenty-plus rounds in the parking lot of Club Miami Beach, or when they drive their Escalade through the crowd at Taste yelling out “you don’t know who your fuc*in’ with!!!” that is not the kind of diversity that should be tolerated, let alone celebrated, folks.
Officious intermeddlers like Jackson and Sharpton and their limousine liberal white friends/accomplices say it is racist that more people of color (who dreamed up that PC handle?) get arrested than white folks. Well, I have yet to hear of wholesale dismissals of charges against people of color by our judges. In other words, the ones who were arrested did indeed do the crime. So shut up, do your time, and don’t whine about the bad food. You don’t want to go back to jail? Then don’t commit another crime, bonehead.
The answer to that race arrest statistics issue, if there really is one, is not to arrest fewer criminals of color. The answer is to arrest more white criminals.
But returning to a recurring theme of mine, I am skeptical that race is the true issue at all. Economics is the issue. You don’t have a lot of arrestees (drunk driving and drug possession/use excepted) in this area who make more than $50k/year. Remember, $50k a year here still keeps you eligible for low income housing. If the numbers were run, I’d bet the farm that virtually all of the arrestees earn less than $50k/year, with the vast majority earning less than $25k/year. Plain fact is, poor folks commit crime per capita far more than rich folks. When more folks in power realize that, maybe someone can figure out how to cure that problem.
#83- JMO you raise some very valid points. I avoid downtown in the evenings and weekends because I see a lot of unlawful behaviors. I see everything from drinking, fighting, yelling, destruction of property, to public urination. Being of causation decent, I have also had young Hispanic women scream out, “You white bitches better get used to it, we Mexicans are here to stay!” It’s pretty sad to know such hatred exists in our youth.
JMO, I also support your contentions that the Police are arresting criminals not based on race. Seeing is believing! Just take a drive downtown tonight. You’ll get one hell of an education. Some of these people scream things and do things to the Police that will make you reconsider allowing Police to commit bodily harm!
I saw this group of young Hispanics taking large flashlights and blinding foot Police in the face. Now what would happen if you were being stabbed and needed their help, but some idiot had blinded the Police Officer standing in closet proximately to you? You’d be SOL until the Office regained his/her sight.
Many African Americans have left for the south, and are continuing to leave San Jose. I recently attended a forum at the County of Santa Clara’s Office of Human Relations. The speakers stated that besides economics, the reason behind this migration is due to Blacks feeling isolated and unwelcome here. I must admit I can understand that feeling myself. As a white person who very much loves diversity, I am also starting to feel like an outsider here in San Jose given the large influx of immigrants, both legal and illegal.
As to the parking garages Jack, I think enclosed garages are an invitation to crime. Due to the lack of visibility from the street, anything can happen to your vehicle or you. I strongly suggest no one; male or female walk through a garage alone, day or night. You’re just a victim waiting to happen, parking fee or no fee.
JMOC,
Another dimension to the discussion is the number of blacks who do make over $50K a year and who do not adopt an objective hip-hop appearance who are still targeted by police downtown. I have seen it myself and I have spoken with many young, black professionals who have to experience it again and again. They see it as the price to pay for being in San Jose.
I have seen officers treat my friend, who is in his late 30’s and a lawyer, as a common suspect downtown while walking on the sidewalk while they leave me alone. They approach only him (in a group of 4 or more other professionals) and will ask him to keep moving, or what are you doing here, and so on… I’ve seen it happen more than once. He has to keep his mouth shout “yessir” “don’t mean to cause any problems sir” and keep moving.
Last week, I spoke with a city staffer who is fed up. He is from the East Coast and has lived here and worked in city hall for years. Also in his 30’s. He got so fed up being “randomly” stopped downtown by SJPD and routinely humiliated and embarrased that he finally set a meeting up with the Chief. He has been stopped regularly, particularly if he is out in the evening. He will be with a group of non-black friends and he has had officers get right in his face as he crosses the street “Keep it Moving!”, inches from his face.
I agree that the thugs and troublemakers need to be kept in check and arrested if they break the law. But, SJPD and this city makes no friends by treating all blacks the same.
SJPD is comprised of officers from virtually every ethnicity, race, and cultures, who speak many different languages, male, female, gay, lesbian and transexual, young and those close to retirement, and yet there is a grand conspiracy amongst all these officers that just targets African-Americans downtown? In my opinion this defies logic, and if somebody is routinely being contacted by the police there is some other reason besides race alone.
Hi Kathleen,
My apologies for going off topic in my prior posts. I got sucked into responding to the personal attacks of my beliefs and ability as a father, as well as the hatred displayed towards the gay/lesbian community.
Again, my sincere apology.
Hoober,
Again, I am not a police officer, although for the most part I side with them in this issue. I am sure they could have done things better too in some cases. Very serious allegations have been made against them in the media and by bloggers so I educated myself on this issue and accessed information easily available through the police department and city websites regarding the demographic profile of the police officers as well as staffing issues using objective informaiton. Perhaps my conclusions are incorrect, but it defies logic that a group of 1,300 extremely diverse police officers would have made a secret agreement to target 1-2 groups of people downtown. Furthermore, with all the video cameras, security cameras, and phone cameras, it would have been easy to capture an example of this happening and it would make frontpage headlines as well as to be broadcast on every news channel over and over, but this has not happened to my knowledge. I think there is a group of people in our society who have so much dislike for the police that it distorts their perception of rational, objective facts and they turn it around to blame the police for everything. I would not want their job of being constantly ridiculed and Monday morning quarterbacked.
Officer Dave,
The examples given above of targeting are very accurate in my experience. Your police force is not very impressive and target people of color and or young poeple who wish to frequent downtown. It is very clear that downtown and its percieved problems is the cornerstone of the forces need for more officers. Basically, make downtown a mess and you have your reasons and excuses for more officers.
Sorry to keep telling you this but your force is making downtown worse to make your point of more officers and higher pay.
#85 If that happens as you describe it, it has to stop. There is no excuse for the behavior you describe. I have heard,however, and read on this blog, that the cops are a bit more equal opportunity in whom they harass—pretty much everyone on the street after 1:00 a.m.
I questioned the mayor on his KLIV show the other night re why the soft closings area did not encompass San Pedro Square, where Cuccina, Taste, and Miami Beach Club present the major problems with drunks and gangstas.
His response was predictably political—we are trying it on a limited basis to see how it works. If it does, we may expand it to include them. Chheez, so political—take the easy step first to avoid the real problem. It also tells me they have little confidence in the plan. If they had confidence in it, they’d use it where it’s needed most—@ those 3 venues.
We have folks who get drunk in clubs and get obnoxious. As much as I hate to burden businesses, serving drunk people is indeed their problem and they need to solve it. But that flies in the face of profits, so they just keep pouring the booze, then foist their drunk patrons on the general public at closing time. We have laws to address serving obviously intoxicated people. Those laws need to be enforced, even if it takes $$ out of club owners’ pockets.
Then there are the cheap bastards and underage drinkers who get drunk in the enclosed parking lots and other places, then troll around bothering the rest of us. A major crackdown—that means arrests and prosecutions—needs to occur against them.
Joe MacNamara did it with the hookers along what used to be called SoFA, and the problem went away in a matter of weeks. It just takes a commitment of resources. Make the assh*les unwelcome. Yeah, yeah, they’ll just go elswehere, you say. Well, that’s good for us in S-Jay. The new venue needs to take the same stand, until these people just stay home getting drunk and obnoxious.
The inmates have been running the asylum too long now.
JMO’C
Yes, I think after a certain time, everyone gets caught in the net so to speak. However, many of the anecdotes I heard were early in the evening, well before closing. Between happy hour and late evening. In any case, if it is demonstrative of a couple of bad apples, that’s one thing. But if it is a widespread, systemic problem, then that needs to be addressed.
Dave
I am, by no means, a police basher. I work in the Court system and believe we have many fine police officers in all agencies throughout the County. However, there are different policies that are instituted over time in certain areas of town. Downtown policy, regardless of the color of the officers patrolling it, tends to be very different then the way officers are trained to act or react in other parts of town.
Soft Closings, Who do they benifit? What is the cost of this test on our resorces.
This morning, I was awaken by a late night party, complete with heavy rock and Rap. 1:30 am. It went on until well past 3 am. It was behind my home and several doors down the block.
I’ve lived here 30 + years, A pretty peaceful neighborhood.
I wanted to call the cops, but what the hell, the city Council has given our young folks permission to stay up partying until 3 am. And that’s just the time they have to get out of down town.
What kind of message has this city council send to our community. What? So we can have a 24 hour city. That it’s cool to drink until 2 am, and party down until 3 am.
A total disgregard of our neighborhood’s rest time. Hey, it’s cool to party till the sun comes out. How’s that for Sunshine, Dude?
It’s kinda like the Meth merchants giving free samples to our kids in school to get them hooked.
The Village Sleeps No Mas!
Gil Hernandez
I agree with #91, who writes “I think after a certain time, everyone gets caught in the net so to speak.” This is in contrast with real cities like NYC, where cops mostly leave law-abiding folks alone, even late at night. SJPD could learn from them. It’s not about cops per capita, it’s about how you deal with a problem.
The problem is not just closing time. Sometimes, you can be routed blocks out of your way by arbitrary police street and sidewalk closures. This does not solve the underlying problems downtown. You don’t have to be a police basher to see there’s a problem here.
#94- My question to you is, “Why are bars selling liquor to people to the point of them getting too drunk to act like a responsible human being?” Where in here are club owners following the law on selling too much booze to people?
I personally favor soft closings. BTW, I stopped going downtown because they are just too many drunks acting up, and too many fights.
#94 In Favor
I guess we will soon find out if soft closings work or not. However, the main problem is as Kathleen points out in #95, too many noisy drunks and too many fights. And closing could take all night and the drunks still wouldn’t sober up before dawn. Irresponsible patrons are being encouraged by the irresponsible clubs to guzzle as much as possible without restriction.
BTW Taste is actually not in the test zone which ends on the east side of San Pedro Street. They are on the west side. This from the police chief and also I have double checked this just to make sure.
Also, since they imposed the $5 charge at the San Pedro parking garage, they have painted the stairwell and they clean up a little more regularly, even though it still gets trashed at night. The urinating has continued because you don’t have to park there in order to use it for a toilet. The policing has increased. In fact, two men were arrested there recently with loaded weapons. The glossy leaflets have stopped for a while, except for Club Miami which is certainly one of the worst offenders of all the clubs. It is against city law to put leaflets on cars in city garages and I hope they are cited and fined the maximum.
As I sit here and read these, I’m noticing a pattern. Almost ever comment from someone who doesn’t think “soft-closing” should happen, seems to be the people who don’t go out. The same people who don’t ACTUALLY experience exactly how big a problem downtown has. I’ve worked in downtown night clubs for sometime now, and the amount of people who are herded onto the streets of downtown San Jose is what makes it unsafe. You have a substanial amout of drunk people all walking out of bars and clubs at the exact same time. No matter where you are, or what type of person your establishment happens to cater to, when people are intoxicated, they don’t react it situtions in the best manner possible. Soft-closings make it so people don’t all have to be rushed into the streets… If you’ve been in club downtown, that’s exactly what it’s like. Drinks aren’t served past 1:30, but according to state law, those drinks don’t have to be disposed of till 2. There are clubs/bars, that let you drink right up until you walk out the door at 2. I’m not in ANY possivle way condoning it, but there are going to be those people lacking rational thought that leave and get in cars and drive home. That is a bigger problem than just some of the minor complaints people have about night clubs. (noise, flyers on ground/cars) By giving club/bar patrons that extra hour of not having to leave, but not being able to drink, hopefully it will help save lives from DUI drivers. (If soft-closing does become permenant-VTA might want to think about extending hours till 3 also, to help ease to issue) In addition, less police will be needed to help control the influx of people on the street (since there will be less), hopefully this will save the city some money in labor and court costs with less arrests. It’s not like the bars and clubs are really profiting from this extra hour. We now have an extra hour of labor costs. Between security and bartenders (we can still serve soft drinks, water, and energy drinks), along with managment and DJ charges, this amounts to quite a bit…. Either way, the pros outweigh the cons. It might not make all the problems disappear, but over time it should help to ease the burden.
Either way-the program begins tomorrow night. We’ll just have to wait and see…. (and Taste is included in the test area)