It is a fact of life for downtown residents that Friday and Saturday nights are extremely noisy, especially if you live on or near Santa Clara Street. The constant stream of slow-cruising, high-volume subwoofer-armed cars is bad enough, but the loud music from the clubs and the groups of shouting, laughing merrymakers after midnight are just as bad. The only thing that makes it tolerable for those of us over 40 who live downtown is the fact that the police clear the streets at 2 a.m., and by 2:15, all is quiet. If it wasn’t for that, we wouldn’t get any sleep on the weekends.
It is a myth that downtown is the exclusive domain of single 20- and 30-something party animals living in snazzy one bedroom condos. In fact, there are many families and older working stiffs living downtown because we have jobs here. Downtown is our home and we like our peace and quiet just like they do in Willow Glen and Evergreen. Yet, the Development Agency, Planning Commission and club owners seem to forget that in their quest for a 24-hour profit center.
Now, in its infinite wisdom, the San Jose Planning Commission has decided that drunks sent packing by the clubs at 2 a.m. need an hour to “eat and sober up before driving (!) home” to their nice, quiet suburban lairs. So, they have granted permission to the two La Victoria restaurants downtown to stay open another hour until 3 a.m. And, even though the police and certainly some residents disagreed, the Commission has decided to ignore the needs of residents and look after the interests of way-over-the-limit, alcohol-infused, peace-disturbing revelers who live elsewhere. (One obviously brain dead commissioner even suggested extending the closing time until 4 a.m.!)
Is this the thin edge of the wedge? Won’t this mean that other restaurants will get extensions? It’s not the extra hour I mind; it’s the 3 a.m. clear-out time. If they want to have an hour buffer, why not close the drinking establishments and clubs at 1 a.m. and clear the streets at 2 a.m.? Or, if nightclub patrons want a meal before meandering home, let them leave the club early enough to do so. The situation was skirting the edge of reason already.
There has to be some balance to life downtown between the late night business owners and those of us who call the place home. Given the rate of residential development in the core, the city obviously wants to attract new residents of all ages and descriptions downtown. Letting the streets run wild until 3 a.m. is not the way to do it. Club and other business owners and those in charge of planning and development need to take some responsibility and show some respect to their resident neighbors, and the police have to continue to clear the area of noisemakers at a reasonable hour—no later than 2 a.m. on weekends—or nobody will want to live and work here.
I agree with Bar Owner. The police have turned Downtown into a war zone. It’s most obvious on cinco de mayo but you can see it every week. Anyone who can, goes to Santana Row despite the fact that everything there is too trendy and overpriced. That won’t change until the neo-nazi police tactics are reconsidered. Yes, go after the trouble makers but leave law-abiding citizens alone.
Wait, I thought that San Jose was looking to be lumped in with other “Big Cities”?
Big Cities are noisy, that is what makes them Big Cities. 24/7 culture is one of the things that makes a “Big City” great, the ability to find things open at all hours.
This is why San Jose is lame and always will be. It closes down at night.
Closing down at night is what “Sleepy Towns” do.
San Jose is a Sleepy Town, with a boring downtown. San Jose will stay this way as long as there are people like you…. The Complainers Against Night Life.
If that is what you want, then fine. You need to embrace San Jose as a “Sleepy, Backwater Town”. Start to tell everyone to go home, because San Jose has nothing for tourists, and folks should just stay away… So you can get your sleep.
If you want San Jose to be a World Class City and a destination spot, then please be quite, because San Jose needs a nightlife to be even considered for a World Class City.
The choice is yours. Choose “Sleepy Town”, or “Big City” and embrace it, but please don’t’ try to have your cake and eat it too.
Jack comments again point out that –
Downtown businesses and residents can NOT agree on what they want and continue to fight among themselves and be uncooperative in defining what is a vibrant downtown and very basic multiple theme business district planning concepts
Jack – either did not attend public meeting or as he frequently does to make his editorial point –
Chooses to ignore what actually went on at public meeting or basic facts –
Many downtown residents and businesses spoke FOR and AGAINST having La Victoria restaurants downtown staying open another hour until 3 a.m. – No consensus
All large successful city downtown’s have multiple different theme successful retail, restaurant and entertainment district areas each with clear business vision and focus on like type customers which downtown lacks.
San Jose allow any business with it’s different type of customers to be anywhere in downtown even though different customers conflict. If San Jose had clear multiple focused designated theme business districts than residents like Jack could chose to live near or in the business district that they liked. What is attractive in a downtown theme business district to one person many times is a problem for others
Most of the local successful business districts that downtown residents envy or complain about have been successfully developed in the last 10 years – – Campbell, Los Gatos, Santana Row, Willow Glen etc and shows that there are many potential customers locally if a business district and residents will work together
Very few successful businesses will locate downtown unless they have high profit margins until downtown has a clear multiple business district plan, address known problems and shows it can implement successfully in each business district
The fault for downtown’s failures and limited success is not in others ( your different types of customers, City Council, Planning Commission, redevelopment, other cities, retailers, developers etc ) but DOWNTOWN businesses and residents.
Stop making excuses and blaming others – any Downtown failure or success is downtown’s Responsible – No ONE ELSE and until all of you accept that responsibility downtown will continue to be a marginal downtown success or failure depending on your viewpoint
Time is not the issue. Police enforcement is.
The police should set up sobriety check points on Santa Clara street all night and enforce the noise laws. Or perhaps close large blocks of streets, making the whole downtown a pedistrian zone. Want to go downtown, use mass trasit.
The Planning Commission was right on with their vote. Why should La Victoria have to close at 2AM when Jack In The Box be allowed to stay open 24 hours. Why not allow all restaurants stay open 24 hours? At least the noise would be inside and people would really have time to sober up?
But really Jack, you can’t have it both ways, San Jose can’t be big city with sports teams and be a quiet town.
Is it the type of crowd and their activities that draw the police and their tactics, or do the police and their tactics draw the crowd?
As a 10 year downtown resident, I believe it’s clearly the former.
Bar Owner is right, 1000%. Many of the police who patrol downtown at nighttime are not your friendly neighborhood Barney Fifes. They are copmplete thugs themselves. They run around, saying stuff like, “We’re the biggest gang in San Jose.”
Yeah, one of them actually said that.
They treat EVERYBODY like crap, so when these policies were implemented about five years ago, all the upstanding folks who wanted to come downtown and spend money, stopped coming downtown because they got sick of dealing with the Blue Tide, as it’s now called.
And Greg #4 is also right 1000%. Jack, if you want San Jose to be a sleepy farmer’s town forever, that’s fine. But many of us are bored with such things and want this to be a major city, which it should be. Noise is part of the urban experience, for crying out loud. Get real!
If we want a vibrant lively big city downtown – it will be noisy, have movement, activity and bright lights late at night and weekends
vi·brant –
1. Pulsing or throbbing with energy or activity: the vibrant streets of a big city. Vigorous, lively, and vital
2. Exhibiting or characterized by rapid, rhythmic movement back and forth or to and fro; vibrating ( movement / traffic )
3. Produced as a result of vibration; resonant or resounding: vibrant voices. ( noise )
4. Relatively high on the scale of brightness: a vibrant hue. ( light )
If San Jose Police continue to clear and roll up sidewalks and close down downtown, we will never have a vibrant downtown
Sounds like old Jack wants his peace and quiet in a sleepy downtown
The greatest quote of all regarding downtown can be found in a Metro article a few years back.
Then Chief Landdown who created these closing policies 5 years said….
If we didn’t do the street diversions and closing procedures we have in place; EVERYBODY would want to come here”.
So these policies were put in place for a reason! The police do not want customers downtown!
People who chose to live in the downtown of a large city cannot expect quiet nights any more than people who live next to freeways can expect to avoid freeway noise.
San Jose has a problem with planning, zoning and deciding what it wants and where it wants it. Use a big city I am very familiar with, Chicago, as an example.
Downtown Chicago, for the most part, shuts down at night. Downtown is the banks and bankers, law offices and lawyers and other businesses as well as retail shopping and restaurants. The restaurants are open late but not all night.
Rush Street, on the other hand, is the party (club) section of the city that stays open late or all night and where most of the boisterous action takes place. It is not downtown. If you buy or rent near Rush street, you know what you get.
San Jose is just not thought out or planned out. They want it all in one place and it will NEVER make everyone happy.
You can look at San Francisco and see the same thing. Downtown San Francisco is not up and running all night. Some sections are but not “downtown.”
Someone in San Jose has to sit down and make a comprehensive plan, if it is not too late to do so, to decide what they want and where they want it.
1 ) San Jose Police Department needs more officers and more money
2) Downtown business objects to excessive Police downtown
Millions of Police budget is spent on downtown night and weekend policing
Solution:
1) Reduce number of Police downtown and save overtime money
2) Have downtown late night club public safety tax
3) Greater traffic, DUI and noise enforcement = more fines for troublemakers = less problems
Result:
More downtown business / more money for downtown enforcement and police in other areas
Thugs vs police issue aside, I don’t see what the big deal is in letting a restaurant stay open late. The gone-but-not-forgotten El Rebozo on Santa Clara St used to be open until 4AM, before SOFA or EZ or any other trendily acronymed fun zone existed. Now that we have those zones, we have rules that the businesses nearby can’t stay open late. Backwards just like everything else that this town does.
#7 I think the latter of your two options is just as valid. Plenty of these thug types surely go downtown for the sport of taunting the police. Maybe if we took that source of entertainment away from the thugs, a lot of them would stay away. We will always need a certain level of police presence, but overkill clearly isn’t working.
#4 Greg, your closing statement captures exactly what’s wrong with the downtown nightlife scenario.
#6 Jack, maybe limiting a good chunk of downtown to a pedestrian-only zone is worth a try. Given that the misguided transit “mall” slows traffic to a snail’s pace, walking from place to place is likely faster anyway.
#5: I happened to be at the Planning Commission meeting last week and spoke in favor of allowing La Victoria to stay open until 3 a.m. As I recall I was the only resident to speak on the matter one way or the other. However, there was a packed council chamber at the time, with many downtown area residents, and my remarks received a sizeable applause. Message: the downtown residents are (by and large, with Jack van Zandt obviously excepted) in solidarity with the downtown business owners on this.
Allowing a taqueria to stay open until 3 a.m., or all night, which is what I advocate, should not going to cause anyone to lose sleep.
Michael,
Great comments and so simple – too bad Downtown businesses and residents like Jack – still do not get it
Downtown is responsible for downtown’s success or failure and planning where different theme business districts are located
So if you buy or rent near a theme business district, you know what you get – different districts, different rules, different customers and and different hours – all night, closing at 2 pm, midnight or earlier –
“San Jose is just not thought out or planned out”
” Someone in San Jose ( Downtown businesses and residents like Jack ) has to sit down and make a comprehensive plan, if it is not too late to do so, to decide what they want and where they want it. ”
San Jose does seek to merge its business, lifestyle, and evening activities in order to build a critical mass of activity to bring energy and vitality to the central core. This works against having a complete mix of family housing and late night entertainment, but that is the choice that is being pressed here.
The alternative is to have downtown seem like just another neighborhood – some quality attributes but generally a suburban center with no extended night life. The economics of Lincoln Ave. in the heart of downtown. Is that really what people want for San Jose?
I agree with those who feel the closing-hour police presence is a bit oppressive. I understand it to be more about managing the police force labor costs and man hours than about public service. Our officers are asked to press for a rapid evacuation each evening in order to contain overtime. Individually they are not the problem, but the overwhelming presence makes its own statement. A dozen police cars in a block sends a message even if you don’t see the officers. It is clearly on purpose.
I routinely work late at night in SOFA and encounter many young clubbers on their way home. (I am definitely way out of their demographic.) Neither my wife nor I feel any concern about walking to our cars there in the early morning hours. The worst I get is a few who knock on my window as they pass and suggest I should go home -probably good advice. Occassionaly startled but never at risk.
Lighten up and let’s see what happens with the extended hours. I, for one, am pleased that our youth are enjoying downtown for without them San Jose would be quite barren at night.
I have been living downtown for more than seven years, and the current situation has developed over the past five years as more and more clubs have opened up. It’s not law-abiding citizens who prompted the current tactics employed by the police, but irresponsible revelers and assorted troublemakers. The club action brings these people downtown, not the prospect of clashing with the police.
I have nothing against 24-hour restaurants downtown in principle and I have no problem with reasonable law-abiding club nightlife until 2 a.m. on weekends in my neighborhood. It’s the building-shaking boombox cruisers, bad behavior of some individuals and lack of respect for resident neighbors shown by some club owners (not all of them by any means—many are very reasonable) that cause problems for everybody else and make the clearing of downtown by the police necessary. Throwing after-hours dining into that mix does not address the source of the problem and is only going to make a bad situation worse.
The blogger who said there is no consensus on the matter is correct. What I am calling for is coming to one by finding a balance between all of the elements so we can eliminate the problems, have 24-hour restaurants and, hopefully, reduce the police presence so they can attend to other duties. Once that point of equilibrium is attained, downtown will be a better place for everyone.
“Old Jack”
Are we suburban or urban? It’s your choice! Do you guys want San Jose to be like Chicago, which I went last summer, and LA where both cities’ downtowns shut down after 8pm or like Madrid, Paris, Rome and Tokyo where they’re all up and running all night long. If you allow business establishments to stay open late, we will be like those European cities and New York City with all the vitality! If you want the police to kick everyone out by 1am, San Jose will be very quiet and suburban, and downtown would be just like boring downtown Chicago and LA. It’s up to you guys.
Sorry for the late post. Work had the audacity to interfere with pontificating on SJI.
I have mixed feelings towards this issue.
First, I completely sympathize with anyone who is assaulted with unwanted and unnecessary noise. This has become a major problem in our society. The noise-makers, irrespective of who/what they are, always scream that it is their right to assault anyone at anytime. The victims of this assault feel that it is their right to not be assaulted by unnecessary noise.
However, a certain amount of noise is a part of life, and is expected from living in close proximity to a large number of people. The issue is at what point does normal and expected noise cross the line into anti-social behavior.
Clearly, BOOM BOOM cars, and club noise “leaking” into the public, crosses the line, and should be stopped.
On the other hand, a “real” city needs to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and this includes bars, restaurants, shops, etc. As our population increases we will only be able to accommodate these people by having different work shifts over the course of the day. It is unreasonable to expect night workers to only be able to go to Denny’s after work.
The problems outlined above, BOOM BOOM cars and loud clubs, are easy to address and fix.
For the cars, the police need to crack down and enforce the law regarding loud car stereos. As the lowlifes get ticket after ticket they will eventually realize they either need to act civil on the streets, or stay away.
Clubs are even easier to fix. Before a permit is granted to any club, the club needs to demonstrate that with a sound pressure level of 120 db inside the club that anyone on the sidewalk, in a room above the club, or in a building adjacent to the club cannot hear any sound at all from the club. If the owner does not want to properly insulate the club then no permit. End of problem.
We need 24 hour bars, restaurants, movies, stores, churches, etc. We just do not need the anti-social lowlifes who cannot behave irrespective of the hour.
#13: *Great* points.
Everyone else: The money quote in Jack’s initial post is “The constant stream of slow-cruising, high-volume subwoofer-armed cars is bad enough, but the loud music from the clubs and the groups of shouting, laughing merrymakers after midnight are just as bad.”
Clearly, *noise* is the problem. Do you care if people are downtown as long as they mind their business and don’t bother you? I don’t. I don’t think it’s right for police to “clear the streets” unless there is clear and present danger from visitors. If I want late-night Mexican food (or a trip to Walgreen’s or Jack-in-the-Box) I should be able to get it, if those businesses wish to serve me.
I went to a club with some friends in San Francisco a few months ago, a new experience for me. At closing time, everyone flooded out onto the street and police were yelling at people to keep moving and clear the sidewalks. Where were people to go? Cabs were in short supply and many of us were trying to wait on the rides we had chartered from other places like San Jose. What a melee!!! I thought it was unusual but later learned that this is what happens at closing time in SF AND San Jose.
Police presence is fine, but such cattle herding at the closing hour was riot control and dangerous in itself.
As such I’ll never go to a club in SF again. And you won’t catch me at a downtown club in San Jose, either. Such heavy-handedness pushes preppies like me into Santana Row.
There are laws already in place to handle the downtown noise problems cited again and again on SJI. How about enforcing those for a change?
The biggest problem with all Downtown arguments is that there never was a mandate for a lively downtown in the first place.
When all this started in the early ‘80’s, was it the result of public outcry “BRING BACK OUR DOWNTOWN”? No, that never happened. It was a good idea pushed by the political power brokers of the time, but without much passion from the population. Jack is correct. There is no consensus on Downtown and there never has been because by and large Downtown has been a political project disguised as a civic improvement. 20 years later there’s still no major public outcry that dominates the conversation…except, perhaps the one that screams “give it up!”
You’ve opened a real box of worms Jack. It will be interesting to read the commentary. It will be most interesting to see who agrees with you and who doesn’t. I know for a fact that there are a lot of boys in blue who really enjoy going into the EZ to roust out the revelers. They get some pretty good overtime for that duty. Who has promoted the concept of the Entertainment Zone? How about your boss, where does he stand on this issue?
Downtown can have a vibrant / profitable nightlife and become a great place to live.
But the closing procedures by the police that were put in place about 5 years ago have led to the “rowdy” noisy problems we have today. By treating intimidating customers and treating them so rudely; the police policies have basically changed the downtown entertainment district into a very young “police tolerant” crowd.
These crowds, mostly under the age of 25 (and many under the age of 18 who can’t get into bars) come downtown to square off with each other and the police.
Most of the older, more profitable and respectful people (who will not come down because of how the police treat people) go to Santana Row and Los Gatos. And collectively spend millions of dollars per year there.
Because of the environment we have in downtown, outstanding restaurants are under-performing and in fact going out of business. While at Santana Row, restaurant sales, measured by per square foot, are rivaling the sales of restaurants in the best tourist cities in the USA.
And why would retail and restaurant sales at Santana Row be so much better than a downtown with a number of hotels, a convention center, a great arena, and many great arts groups?
Customers just don’t want to be treated the way they are treated by the police. It’s that simple.
The police policies have made it clear to “normal” people that they are not welcome downtown. And wow, they listen and go elsewhere and the restaurants suffer. And the nightlife gets younger and thus the people living downtown suffer.
Bar Owner
Part of the problem in San Jose is that we think sound mitigation is the answer to poor planning. That has allowed incompatible uses not only downtown, but also in other parts of the city.
Smarter planning also requires smarter people—you don’t move next to a loud, noise producing use and expect to live in a quiet neighborhood. On the other hand, the city needs to be smarter in what uses they allow—why build housing next to a noise producing source—whether it be a rock crushing facility, railroad, expressway, or a night club??
SJI has had many very good comments about many downtown problems and possible solutions
Many downtown businesses and residents do not like existing downtown results or want something different but are unwilling to do anything about changing downtown except endlessly talk and complain
So what Community Leaders of downtown businesses, community, neighborhoods, homeless, etc groups are going to Step Up and actually Organize – Downtown Community Leadership Group – to develop Downtown Community Vision and Plan, coordinate and do other work necessary with City Council, various city department, redevelopment and Police Department etc and solutions to fix what you define as downtown’s problems?
If this is not done by downtown businesses, community groups and residents either others ( city, developers, redevelopment etc ) with different objectives will plan downtown for you and you will be living with their not your results
The choice is yours – Downtown’s Success or Failure is up to the Downtown Community’s businesses, community organizations and residents –
While others to include government may help you – No one except you – Downtown Community Leaders – should or is responsible for downtown’s success or failure
Jack says: I have nothing against 24-hour restaurants downtown in principle and I have no problem with reasonable law-abiding club nightlife until 2 a.m. on weekends in my neighborhood.
Why 2am and not 3am? This whole thread is nonsense. Jack, you are not the only resident of downtown. I have lived downtown for almost twenty years, primarily because it’s the only place in this hellhole that’s even remotely urban. I am a night person. I don’t want to get up at 5am and go to work. I’d like to go out to my local haunts, have drinks, have fun, and carry on into the wee morning hours, like anyone urbanite would in any real city anywhere. The fact that letting a burrito place open until three as opposed to two is even an issue is beyond my comprehension. It just reeks of farmer’s town nonsense.
I more than anyone would like to see the boombox cruisers done away with, but you have to understand that this is simply what many kids do these days. The majority of folks in San Jose who are 18 years old just want to cruise around, show off their cars and their stereos and look for girls or get in a fight. That’s the truth.
There is no solution. Just find a way to enjoy yourself in spite of it all.
Jack, you should invest in better windows, or perhaps you should move to Willow Glen or Evergreen.
Santana Row is overrated. Vbar is full of pretentious, debt-ridden poseurs.
San Jose making good plans is not problem
having our politicians following them is problem
City Council career politicians make thousands of exceptions to our plans as political campaign contribution paybacks to developers, labor, lobbyists and business
City Council overrides professional advise of city manager, planners and community groups as we saw yet again Tuesday night’s City Council meeting
Old Jack #18,
Five years ago downtown had way more clubs and at least five times the late night visitors we have now.
San Jose Live existed with over 4,000 patrons nightly. The pavilion had four additional bars / restaurants: Katie bloom’s, Dos Locos, Heart-throb?, and Sports City.
Sofa had a much larger presence and thousands of visitors per night.
Yes, we have had a few new nightlife businesses in recent years, the but overall occupancies back then are no where near occupancy of today. The police even state this; five years ago the overall occupancy of clubs, bars and restaurants was over 25,000. Today it isn’t even 10,000.
The tactics of the past five years have convinced a large percentage of the south bay not to come downtown. We can and should rebuild focusing on restaurants (and bringing more restaurants into downtown) and more well rounded entertainment; such as sports, the arts and other more meaningful late night activities.
But we need the cooperation of the police to make downtown a place for everyone; not just the younger club set.
And yes, that is coming from a bar operator downtown.
#28, Do you care to expand? What did council override on Tuesday night?
Switching topics, anyone know what is the point of parking empty cop cars in the middle of Santa Clara St on the weekends? Intimidation?
Not very inviting. Is the Plaza the only place SJ downtown can show a little Christmas spirit? Santa Clara St could use some of that Willow Glen style Christmas glow.
Jack, Jack, Jack: Get a clue. You cannot have it both ways. You, Tom McE, and the RDA want San Ohaze to be a WORLD CLASS CITY, but you, apparently Jack, want it to adhere to your biorythms and sleep times. OOOPs!
Downtowns are by their very nature noisy. I was in Manhattan a few years back. Staying @ The Waldorf Astoria. WORLD CLASS HOTEL, right? The street noise never stopped. It was difficult for a suburbanite like me to get to sleep or to stay asleep. But that’s what cities are, Jack. So, I did my best, enjoyed what Manhattan has to offer, and got over the noise.
And that’s why most San Joseans HATE the downtown. They don’t want that scruffy, noisy, all night disturbance.
Many gov’t types here have city envy over SF. So, head down to SoMA or even worse, The Tenderloin. It doesn’t stop. You can’t sleep there, either, if you want a quiet environment.
Ever go to the woods overnight, Jack? Even the bloody crickets and frogs keep you awake. It’s really irritating, isn’t it, Jack?
Is there no safe haven for people who want a vibrant downtown…that they can turn off the volume of when THEY want to go to sleep? No, Jack, there isn’t.
Jack, you want downtown living without downtown lifestyle. Downtowns are gritty, pimp and whore places. If you want peace and quiet onYOUR schedule, move to Almaden and stop whining.
I’m in my late 20’s. I eat, drink, sometimes sleep, and study in downtown. As soon as I can, I’m most likely going to move to a real city.
Btw, so far we’ve addressed the the excessive policing and extending hours for businesses, but has anyone addressed the lack of culture Downtown has?
Its great that Gallery AD moved down to SoFa to join the other galleries, but also sad to hear that WORKS will have to relocated because the new building owner decided to hike the rent to an unaffordable amount. Let’s see for how long that lot sits vacant, like MANY other empty spaces. It’s an ongoing, and annoying trend. It’s ONLY when you have a great source of art/culture/music that will this place ever thrive. You take any run down area (the mission dist in SF, Silverlake in LA) make the rent cheap, starving artists move in, giving the area sort of character, and lets see how long before businesses and customers decide to come BACK to downtown instead of that faux culture down over at Santana Row. If this EVERY happens, then other issues like gentrification will arise, we’d be so lucky.
So its stop wasting money to tempt big name corporations, and retail flagship stores into the area and stop wasting money on unnecessary policing and instead invest in spaces for art and music.
+lex