Just-released Department of Justice numbers again show racially disproportionate arrest rates in San Jose.
San Jose has more of one type of arrest than many cities with significantly larger populations. And local police are arresting Latinos at a rate well beyond their respective proportion to the general population. In fact, San Jose has more arrests of Latinos than San Diego and San Francisco has total arrests.
No, this isn’t a four-month-old story on public intoxication, but it may change that story’s ending. It is the story of another charge that also relies heavily on police discretion: the charge of “resisting arrest”—also known as 148(a). And the numbers should re-orient the discussion around the public intoxication issue from being about sobering stations and breathalyzers, to the common dominator of both arrest patterns—police practices at the time of arrest.
In response to a public records request by Silicon Valley De-Bug (the non-profit organization I work for) the California Department of Justice released arrest data with racial demographic breakdowns for San Jose for the years of 2007 and 2008. The state agency also released figures on 148(a) arrests for San Diego, Long Beach, Fresno, Sacramento and San Francisco.
While total arrest numbers are substantially lower than the numbers found in the drunk-in-public 647(f) charge—numbers are in the hundreds, rather than thousands—data shows the same basis of concern that has lead to a flood of public outcry, a raucous open forum at City Hall, a council appointed Task Force, and a political wrestling match over the sharing of police records.
The California Penal code defines 148(a) as “willfully obstructing, interfering, delaying, investigation of police.” It is a misdemeanor offense. As in the 647(f) charge, the arresting officer uses his or her discretion to determine if someone is conducting the criminal act described in the penal code.
And while the 148(a) charge may have the same beginnings as the 647(f) in terms of depending upon police discretion, the consequential arrest data compiled by the California Department of Justice shows patterns similar to those in the public intoxication charge. Namely, San Jose arrest levels exceed other cities, and the arrests are racially disproportionate to the city’s general population.
For example, Latinos, who represent roughly 30 percent of the general population, represented 58 percent of all 148(a) arrests between January and June 2008.
The percentage of 647(f) arrests that sparked the response from San Jose Latino advocacy organizations was 57 percent last year—a tick lower than is the case with charges of resisting arrest.
In 2007, San Jose (population of 989,496) had 441 such arrests, in comparison to San Diego (population 1,336,865), which had 233, and San Francisco (population 824,525) which had 185.
Of San Jose’s total 148(a) arrests, 239 were Latinos, who represented 54.2 percent of the total arrests. Blacks, while representing only 3.5 percent of the general population, accounted for 15.4 percent of the total arrests.
Data for 2008 continue along this trend. From January to June of 2008, there were 240 148(a) arrests in San Jose, with San Diego having 140, and San Francisco 79. In that time same span, there were 140 Latinos arrested with the charge—as mentioned above, that’s 58 percent of the total.
While this data, just as the debate around the 647(f) charge, may be interpreted in a number of ways, its release should inform the discussion that was initially sparked around how San Jose can reduce public intoxication arrests. The same concerns of “attitude arrests” would exist with the 148(a) as well. Indeed, at the open forum back in November, a number of the testimonies that were presented to city council through public comment were in fact claims of false arrest of both 647(f) and 148(a) out of the same incident.
As the Public Intoxication Task Force comes up with suggestions on how to decriminalize 647(f), an obvious concern, based on the data shown with the 148(a), is that if attitude arrests are in fact occurring, we may see a decrease in 647(f) arrests, but an increase of 148(a) arrests as well as another charge that carries the same basic component of officer discretion, such as disturbing the peace (415)—officers essentially using a different device that relies mainly on their own decision-making.
The ideas offered by the Public Intoxication Task Force must address this issue of police practice at the time of arrest, or we may require another Task Force in short time for the other charges.
148(a) – By the Numbers
2007
San Jose: 441
Latinos, San Jose: 239
San Diego: 233
San Francisco: 185
Racial breakdown, San Jose
Black: 15.4 percent
Latino: 54.2 percent
API: 9.1 percent
White: 18.4 percent
2008
San Jose: 240
Latinos, San Jose: 140
San Diego: 104
San Francisco: 79
Racial breakdown, San Jose, Jan.-June, 2008
Black: 13.8 percent
Latino: 58.3 percent
API: 8.3 percent
White: 16.3 percent
Raj,
After reading your fine analysis, I suggest we adopt a new policy wherein the number of arrests for any given group – race, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. – cannot exceed its proportion in the general population.
Of course, the complex nature of this undertaking will require that we establish a new agency to monitor and administer this breathtakingly refreshing and practical concept.
What is up with the assumption (implicit in all your cop-criticizing editorials) that crimes are committed in the exact proportion that a given group of people bears to the total population?
I would like to recommend that a socialogical study be done in San Jose to determine why so many blacks and latinos are so unruly when they drink. There may be an underlying cause for their behavior that we are not aware of that is caused by this geographical location.
First Raj, i would like to thank you for shedding light on local issues they way that you do.
Second, I would like to speak to those who seek to play down the issues that we face as a community. It is troubling to read the majority of comments and editorials posted on this site. I have heard everything from Pierluigi Oliverio saying that graffiti writers and drug dealers should receive corporal punishment for their “crimes” to anonymous posters telling undocumented immigrants that they’re sucking the life out of our economy. While I do not advocate the committing of crimes, as a human rights advocate, I do attempt to identify fair conditions when these charges are presented.
As human beings (read: all of us), it is my belief that we should all be held to a higher standard. Do I believe that criminals should walk free? Definitely not. Do I believe that maybe police officers overstep their bounds in cases where they are allowed a great deal of discretion? Absolutely. What we all have to realize is that not every “criminal” is guilty, or a bad person for that matter, and we also have to realize that not all police officers are upstanding individuals. Time and time again we have seen police officers exercise unfair practice in their pursuits of individuals. Whether it be shooting unarmed “suspects” or using flimsy devices like the “resisting arrest” and “drunk in public” charges just to exhibit their absolute power, then leading to folks having to spend nights in jail, and miss work or school to defend themselves in cases, many of which are dismissed by the time they are seen by a judge.
All I want to say is that maybe if we spend more time listening to one another, we can get to the root of what these issues are. For the sake of conversation, lets just say that blacks and latinos are totally mindless creatures who only exist to play out stereotypes. Most cities with diverse ethnic communities have offices and departments set-up for diversity issues. Police are given sensitivity training and are better prepared to deal with the subtle differences that may be effecting specific communities. This in-turn works to strengthen community relations in a city…or at least attempts to. San Jose has no such device that I’m aware of, and if they do, it does not appear to be working.
Finally, I would just like to say that the problem starts here. If community members can hide behind online handles and make charges that people of particular races are out of control, and that there is no way the police can be wrong, I am more concerned about them than I am the police. At least with a police officer, I can see them coming. The problem with general community members is that we all blend in to some degree. Our hate and disdain is hidden behind fake smiles and hollow handshakes. San Jose is only as great a city as we allow it to be.
So here’s some food for thought. I challenge everyone reading this to do 2 things:
1. Stop by Silicon Valley De-Bug on a Tuesday evening for their open editorial meeting and see where these people are coming from and what they are about. It is easy to attempt to take someone down for what they say, but its a lot harder to pick one up for what they are not afraid to say. This is not a regime of lunatics, but a group of young thinkers and doers who put their money where their heart is. As hard as it may be to believe, these young folks actually have an open rapport with members of the city’s political infrastructure, and are not merely just a band of wild kids shaking their fists in anger.
2. Go downtown on any given weekend and take notes of the less than savory activity that you may witness. I have gone downtown more times than I can count in the 30 years I have lived here, and to this day, I could count on one hand the times that I have seen any activity warranting that someone should even be approached by a police officer. Maybe I just don’t know the key locations where all the magic happens…you could enlighten me. Arrest should not generally be used as a preemptive measure and Jail should always be a worst case scenario.
Finally something you could write about eh Raj. I cannot imagine you will be satisfied until the SJPD command staff come forward and admit to institutionalized racial profiling and ask you to be the IPA. Not gonna happen. What say you? Care to explain the endless stories demonzing SJPD??
Public Intoxication Task Force would be a great name for a band.
#10 William Brown
Diversity issues and sensitivity training are the problem with our community not the solution.
Walk up and down 2nd street (or south first or Santa Clara) on a weekend night from 12-2am and you’ll see more activity warranting arrests in those two hours than you have “counted” in 30 years.
You’re either completely out of touch, or lying to push some sort of cultural sensitivity agenda…
I believe some followup research would be useful.
Both public intoxication (until now) and resisting arrest are charges based more or less on the say-so of the officer. There hasn’t been any need to provide evidence.
How do the breakdowns compare with crimes where evidence is required for a conviction? Say burglary, auto theft, passing bad checks, etc.
The reason why San Jose arrest records are higher than San Diego and San Francisco is due to the fact that San Jose has a recreational airport (Reid-Hillview) in the middle of a predominately Latino neighborhood. General aviation continues to use leaded fuel. In fact there are 2 grams of lead in every gallon of GA fuel. This is 4 times the amount of lead that used to be in car fuel. As these planes taxi around RHV, and fly around the neighborhood they are crop dusting East San Jose residents with lead pollution.
Medical research has known shown that inhaled airborne lead is absorbed into the blood, and that any amount of lead in the blood of child can result in permanent cognitive impairment (IQ loss). Additionally, medical research is now showing that lead in blood of children and adults can result in aggressive, anti-social behavior. The data is irrefutable.
The reason why San Jose Latinos are acting aggressively is because Santa Clara County has been exposing them to lead poisoning for over 40 years.
http://www.reidhillview.com/#lead
Ms. 11,
It is clear that you are faithful to your namesake. Thank you for shaking the all-knowing finger at me, as you are clearly far superior to me, both culturally and politically.
The interesting points of your argument are:
1. “Walk up and down 2nd street (or south first or Santa Clara) on a weekend night from 12-2am and you’ll see more activity warranting arrests in those two hours than you have “counted” in 30 years”
I thought this was a little funny, considering there is very little happening on Second street, or on south First street other than 3 bars owned by the same people (hmmm) on Second, and the posh upper-scale Agenda and Wet type locations that allegedly seek to draw the more affluent members of our community who can afford such luxuries, over on S. First. When I had suggested that I am no stranger to downtown, it would be immoral of me to comment if I had not, myself, observed these pathways firsthand. The problem began a long time ago when developers chose to separate the major entertainment district by spreading it laterally across 4 blocks, and filling the space between with very little to make it useful. There is no traffic direction, security of parking lots is minimal, and known areas of contention are not monitored as closely as they could be. The irony of the situation is that our police department is claiming it needs more money due to the heavy burden of policing the entertainment district. This to me, is horsepucky. With our plain clothes vice squad handing out tickets for “open container” violations at music in the park, and department heads patrolling street corners on the weekends, to me seems like a gross misappropriation of funds. You can argue that the people of the downtown(or the homeless and criminal, as I’ve heard them so colorfully referred to) area are the problem. It is my belief that a problem can only be a problem if it is allowed to be a problem. I know of 3 specific areas that are key locations where police presence would be acceptable, and helpful in downtown. What saddens me is that the police are also aware of these locations, and probably have argued that they do not want to patrol them because it is boring. I can see how sitting in one place and maintaing its safety can be a boring task. But I believe police are given certain powers and various swag because their job is difficult. I’m not sure protection is one of the more difficult tasks, but we’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.
2. “Diversity issues and sensitivity training are the problem with our community not the solution”
I’m going to say that you majored in Sociology at the Dick Cheney school of foreign policy. Did I get it? It’s almost like saying, “guns in this country are not our problem…it’s the people who can’t get out from in front of the bullets that we need to be worried about.” To say that I am befuddled by this would be an understatement. When people are objectified and placed in categories, they tend to lose their human qualities. Consider if you will, that with gang profiling, an american history of abuse, and the executive power of the police force, by default, a minority man or woman who is not a police officer is already at a severe disadvantage. Even with sensitivity and diversity training, we’d still have a bear of a time trying to make sure that all of the officers were in fact “human”. To say that people getting to know more about one another is the source of any sort of problem, to me seems foolhardy. Ironically, the SJPD itself has admitted that it already sees this as an issue it must face with its workforce.
Maybe if you’d step back and quit trying so hard to defend the system, you might see that its not the squeaky clean love device you make it out to be. I know thats a stretch, but its no worse than you assessing me like that is some privilege you have. There are disproportionate numbers in arrests. There are facts on the matter available to the public, and it is now a community issue. If you wish to defend the actions of the county, city, etc…please provide us with some information that substantiates your claim. I myself am downtown for some reason or another, nearly every night and never feel as though my safety is in danger. Something tells me you probably don’t get out there much. That is fine, just please do not pass judgement on individuals just because you do not agree with them. Especially when defending agencies and policy you have not direct relation to.
The worst part of all of is this is that we are not talking about robberies, murder, or rapes. The city’s overall crime rate has been going down consistently for some time. Sure, some might say that by locking more people up, its driving the crime down. I’d like to know what the average penalty is for a “drunk in public” or “resisting arrest” charge. Something also interesting to note is that the charge of resisting arrest itself, is trivial, as what protection does a citizen have if they are being unlawfully detained.
Blame me for being concerend…I cana ccept that today.
More help…Less hurt.
Thanks.
Raj,
I have a couple of questions I hope you’ll take the time to answer. Do the cities you cite, San Diego, and San Francisco have a Sobering Station, or do they just use citations? Do these cities have a different way or policy on the handling of persons drunk in public, or resisting arrest?
Great article. The numbers show that it’s not the penal code but the misuse of power by SJPD and using this and the 647fs as umbrella charges.
I wonder what explanation SJPD would give for this one. They can’t blame the alcohol this time.
Disproportionate unfair treatment of Latinos is not a novel item of contention; not in 1777 when this city was founded nor in 2009.
At the core of this issue is a lack of dignity. Its a split second decision on the part of the police department, and city hall. That decision is that Latinos are poor, ignorant and prone to violence and other criminal activities if given the opportunity. Moreover, they are the “blight” that plagues the downtown corridor and will hinder the influx of hip young latte-sipping professionals into the condos and martini bars developers are so desperately trying to fill. In essence we (Latinos) are compromising the city’s effort to Palo Alto-ize downtown.
We’ve served our purpose working in the canneries and orchards, but we no longer fit in with the General Plan for San Jose. Now it would be best for everyone if we moved to the Central Valley or keep our outings limited to the various flea markets scattered about, anywhere except downtown.
Mayor Reed is right, it is a “socio-economic” issue, it has everything to do with the historical treatment of Latinos in the region, and the built-in exclusionary policies that have shaped and re-shaped metropolitan areas and economic opportunities for generations. But if you frame the argument in those terms, then it is easy to dismiss your comments as another tirade from a ranting conspiracy theorist with a pony-tail and beret.
I find it sad , that the city council is going to award San Pedro square 6 million.After all of the shooting, pucking, pissing, drunk in public arrests, drug dealing, that have prevailed all of these years at that localized location.
The Bush years are over! Or so we Thought!
Nora Compos, you better get it on. The good ole boys are at it again.
The documents are there. You just have to find them. THINK BACK!!!!
D.O.A.
Maybe “Latinos represent roughly 30% of the general population of San Jose”, but is that a relevant statistic? It sounds like most of these arrests occur downtown, at night, and on the street.
Perhaps it would be more useful to know what percentage Latinos represent of the on-the street-downtown-at-night population.
#4-Reality,
While I agree that the SJPD does an excellent job, and I support them 100%, not all Police Officers are perfect. I think Raj is entitled to his opinion, and I try to read his columns with an open mind because some of what he says is true, something does need to change. I think many of us get frustrated with him because there is never a balanced viewpoint on SJI, when it comes to this topic. That is not Raj’s fault, but rather that of SJI.
We have an under staffed, under paid Police Department that is being made to perform OT in DT to protect business, and our community. We can’t be ignorant to the fact that our Police Officers are only human, and that they too make mistakes from time to time. These Officers are surely tired, and need a break. Our Mayor and Council need to make our Police Officers and our Fire Fighters a priority. Working Police Officers to death is not the answer. Over tired, under paid Officers are no different than you and I, too much stress and the lack of sleep, and the lack of personal time off to enjoy our loved ones, can turn even the best of us into a Grisly Bear.
I personally would like to see the Metro have a Police Officer give us an article on how under paid, under staffed they are, and how being made to do OT in DT affects them. Balance is always a good thing. Understanding both sides of the issue is vital to problem solving. I think we owe it to these excellent Public Servants to at least give them equal time, when Raj does a column on their performance.
Kathleen,
Here’s a little Reality Check for you:
Starting Salary for Police Officers in:
New York City: $43,062
Chicago: $43,104
San Jose: $70,307
Even with cost-of-living adjustments, their salary is nowhere near “underpaid”
Mr Contreras,
If you will provide an address or phone number, I’m sure a police recruiter would be happy to contact you. Maybe after you’ve done the job for a year or two you can give us a credible opinion of the pay scale (that is, if you don’t fail the training, get fired for losing your temper, get sued, or get crippled or killed in the line of duty).
Jaime,
Not to worry – amoebas will grow arms and drive speedboats before our Downtown will ever compare to Palo Alto.
“In essence we (Latinos) are compromising the city’s effort to Palo Alto-ize downtown.”
………………………………….
Your note is generally insightful, except for the sentence quoted above. I haven’t noticed any such effort on the part of the city. I wish we had multiple bookstores (both chains and independents, and new and used) in downtown SJ instead of none. I wish there were a place to buy music. I wish we had a camera store. I wish we had an Apple store. I wish we had a full-sized drug store. I wish we had a non-chain coffee house. I wish we had a decent amount of general retail, instead of almost none.
Ironically, the city’s politicians want to spend $6 million to help an ex-mayor develop a not-yet planned or designed “urban market” which would not fill any of these gaps.
In a world overflowing with statistics, Raj Jayadev has found a few to love and a whole lot more that he’ll continue to ignore. Fortunately for him, the Bay Area is well-stocked with morons eager to embrace his grade school analysis, eager to condemn trained and accountable public servants, eager to confuse cherry-picked numbers for solid evidence.
For those of us who’ve spent any significant amount of time living amongst the bottom-feeders of San Jose’s Hispanic community, were it the case that the police were not arresting them in disproportion to Whites and Asians it would be a shock; reason enough to question the department’s operational efficiency. The stunning stupidity with which these people engage the public’s offer of a free education, a park to enjoy, or a downtown to explore is matched only by their barbarous desire to join gangs and wage war over the very neighborhoods they have ruined. In San Jose, if an innocent student is jumped by a group of cowardly punks, the odds of the punks being Hispanic are overwhelming. Likewise, find a park that is considered unsafe for neighborhood kids and you are all but guaranteed that it was ruined by “Flaco” and “Casper” and their little band of brown-skinned gangsters. That the presence of these thugs and losers is a detriment to the downtown business community is as obvious as it is politically-incorrect. They are a detriment everywhere, and quietly hated by their own people.
For those of you suddenly enamored by disproportional statistics, I suggest you look at the school dropout rate, the teen pregnancy rate, the gang violence conviction rate, the burglary conviction rate, the homicide conviction rate, and the armed robbery conviction rate. Then you can sit down and try to figure-out how the cops are making Hispanics fail in school, cover themselves in gang tattoos, commit mindless violence, have unprotected sex in middle school, and rape, rob, and steal as if it was their sworn duty.
If our tax money is going to be used to analyze race-based statistics, then I object to the cherry-picking of those statistics by either side. If understanding disproportion is the stated goal, then the public deserves an objective approach—one that includes all crime-related statistics, as well as those dealing with social failure (dropout rates, drug addiction, etc). Let’s see if the disproportion is perception-based, as Raj and the apologists insist, or if it is behavior-based—bad across-the-board, as everyone else knows. Let’s see Hispanics make their case with the statistics of their own behavior, rather than trying to hide their culpability and make a mountain out of a molehill of favored figures.
COMMENT EDITED FOR VIOLATION OF COMMENT POLICY.
While I really like downtown and want to see everyone in the region to feel safe and dignified in walking around and enjoying themselves, plus all the amenities that #17 mentions, I think the real point of Raj’s article is not being addressed.
Raj’s research on 148(a) and the SJMN report on 647(f) show blatant racism against Black and Latino people by the SJPD in ALL of San Jose, not just downtown. The statistics are for the whole city. Sorry #5 John Galt, racism is alive and well, and not because people are complaining about it, but because those who benefit from white privilege want so badly to ignore and deny racism so their property values can climb while youth of color are tracked into prisons.
#9 Stop All Lead Pollution: while I am sorry to hear that the city has been allowing pollution to disproportionately effect the eastside, the lead pollution many of us in San Jose worry about is the bullets fired at unarmed people by the police and the other armed groups who claim and defend turfs around here.
So, to be “solution oriented” I suggest that a police review board be created to hold the police accountable and stop relying on the police department’s internal affairs department and the “Independent” police auditor since the police can’t police themselves.
Jaime what is the source of your salary data? None of those numbers sound right.
Aside from that, last I checked most citizens run from gunfire. Only police officers are paid to confront that danger, of course sometimes making the ultimate sacrifice, their lives. In the event you have not kept track SJPD officers have come under gunfire 3X in the past two months. Maybe if you had to face that type of peril you might consider yourself slightly underpaid. Then again perhaps you cannot or are not interested in mustering that type of understanding or sympathy…
#21-Jaime Contreras,
I grew up back east and know better. I think you better re-check your figures. Look at what Police Officers are paid in LA, San Diego, and San Francisco.
BTW- Are you the ever famous Jaime Contreras, who fights for the rights of illegals by any chance?
Sandra@#14:
Be careful, there is Penal Code Section 647(f) mentioned in the article. But there is also a seperate PC 647f, which is something else totally different: Prostitution after prior prostitution conviction and positive HIV test, a felony. I doubt SJPD file this charge often, at least I hope not.
And, yes, I made the mistake about PC 647(f) and PC 647f before myself. The parentheses makes all the difference in this case.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=639-653.2
Raj writes according to his agenda; we comment; Raj goes silent. That’s his M.O.
#27,
Raj, and his liberal brethren, have no interest in engaging in logical arguments. He doesn’t really care if he’s right or not. To the liberal mind, the only thing that matters is that he feels good about himself because he has demonstrated to the world that he “cares”. That’s all. There is no more.
jmo’c #27 Thank you for confirming what I have seen. Looks like his pattern.
John #28 Truly, thanks for reminding me…
Kathleen, #20
I agree in that, of course, Raj is entitled to his opinion. As well, I believe his is also “responsible” for that opinion, being that he is given the priviledge of writing in this forum. I do take umbridge with the fact that he does not respond to the concerns raised and, at this point, having “enjoyed” his work, expect that he really has no legitimate answer for these queries. That said I do agree with your viewpoint re SJPD. They are an organization of people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. I believe sufficient checks and balances exist to monitor this and weed out the bad apples. I also agree that understanding, or gaining more access to SJPD would be nice, however, I think the struggles these officers face are fairly well apparent. Some view this fairly, others like Raj, use this forum as a avenue for attack. JMHO.
Dear 22, 23, &24;
Let me address your concerns if you’re still interested in this blog post.
22: I have no reason to apply to the SJPD, nevertheless that does not mean that I do not respect the work. I empathize with police officer’s dilemma, in that the work can be challenging and dangerous, furthermore, the expression of due diligence in the face of extraordinary circumstances requires quick wit and strong will. Ultimately they are public servants and as such should respect equally the citizens which have been entrusted to their charge.
23: You can go onto the websites of the respective police departments wherein you will find the salary data I listed previously. Mind you this is base salary for starting officers, but does not include overtime pay.
24: Your anecdotal fact checking “I grew up back east” doesn’t cut the mustard. Here is the website for NYPD, http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_BenefitsOverview.aspx
I’m not going to list the other websites because I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you can type in Chicago PD salary and SJPD salary in a Google search.
And no I am not the same Jaime Contreras that you are referring to, but I do challenge anyone who wishes to call this vital source of our economic engine “illegal.” The fact is that the undocumented workforce contributes to the tax base more so than it takes from public services. The information is available, but its not about information for you I’m assuming, its an emotional issue for you to regard the work of others as undignified.
Special note to Mr. John Galt—I have every interest in engaging in a logical argument and so would a lot of “liberals” given the opportunity and an adequate format. The problem isn’t the information as much as an inability to concede a point. Something I am very willing to do because I’m open to learning from my mistakes, for me it isn’t about winning its about what is right and just, hopefully you and your ilk can understand this.
Jamie,
Posting the pay of “new” officers in New York does NOT support your point that SJPD is supposedly “overpaid” by any means. And what does the pay of New York Officers have to do with SJ? I think you looked for the lowest paid Police Department in a sad and failed attempt to try and support your lame assertion that our PD is overpaid. Go search SF and San Diego, and the number of citizens verses Officers and we’ll talk.
I grew up back east, and was referring to the fact that I “know” first hand your stats are untrue. Officers in New York can and DO make upwards of 90K a year, WITHOUT over time! Look at your own stats! New York also has more officers than we do, so comparing apples to grape fruits is ridiculous.
Secondly, stop playing verbal Judo with us. If you had any real intention of holding an intellectual discussion on this topic you WOULD have to concede that undocumented means “illegal”! Using PC terminology to hide the fact that illegals are breaking the law to be here and supposedly does jobs we “lazy American” won’t, doesn’t cut it with me.
And Jamie, I would really like to see you tell “legal” immigrants who went through a long and costly, legal process, and gave up friends and family to be here, and who proudly became American citizens, that they and their hard work are in no way as important as “a vital source of our economic engine, undocumented workforce.” I want to see you explain to them that all the jobs, education, medical care, and freedoms that they dreamt of having must wait, so that illegals who disregarded our laws can have a crack at them first. I’m sure that they’ll appreciate a differing perspective on immgration!
#30 –
“The fact is that the undocumented workforce contributes to the tax base more so than it takes from public services.”
Unless Illegal Immigrants pay taxes in some way I am not aware of, then they cannot, by definition, “contribute to the tax base.” Please explain to us how you came to the assumption that illegals play no part in our overburdened educational, medical, and economic engine. And how this “vital workforce” has the right to blatantly ignore our laws?
You cite other Police Departments around the US as proof that the SJPD is overpaid. Here in Silicon Valley, things cost much more than in most other parts of our nation, and thus, our salaries tend to be higher. Did you take into account that different parts of our country have different economies? Did you take into account similar size cities? It does not sound like it.
So, what do you think an officer, who puts their life on the line every day for citizens like you and I, should be paid? How should they be treated? How much respect should they be given?
Dear 31 & 32,
#32
I am so very glad you asked me this question:
“Unless Illegal Immigrants pay taxes in some way I am not aware of, then they cannot, by definition, “contribute to the tax base.” Please explain to us how you came to the assumption that illegals play no part in our overburdened educational, medical, and economic engine. And how this “vital workforce” has the right to blatantly ignore our laws?
Short answer, undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes and contribute to Social Security. But you don’t have to take my word for it. I’ll let the NY Times tell you “Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security with Billions,” New York Times April 5, 2005.
Not good enough? Ok, how about the The White House Economic Report of the President, February 2005 page 107. undocumented immigrants working “on the books contribute to the tax rolls but are ineligible for almost all Federal public assistance programs and most Federal-state programs.”
Still not good enough you say?? How about the sworn testimony of the Inspector General of the Social Security Administration on March 14, 2006?? “undocumented immigrants account for a major portion of the billions of dollars paid into the Social Security system under names or social security numbers that don’t match SSA records, payments from which immigrants cannot benefit while undocumented.” As of October 2005, the reported earnings on which these payments are based—which are tracked through SSA’s Earning Suspense File (ESF)—totaled $520 billion dollars.
The anti-immigration rhetoric mongers have always found refuge in the argument that “they are breaking the law”. Well my dears, there are unjust laws still on the books and this is one of them.
Another one of these arguments is that undocumented workers do the work that Americans don’t want to do. I believe that at 7% unemployment with the crumbling of the manufacturing sector, Americans WOULD take those undesirable jobs, IF AND ONLY IF, they were paid something above minimum wage. The problem is the companies, businesses, and corporations that make it a practice to benefit from immigrant labor by creating an environment of akin to modern-day slavery. The problem is that once, American workers demand higher wages and the ICE raids more places of immigrant employment, then these companies will outsource more of their unskilled jobs. My fear, is that the Kathleens and Christians of the world will realize the benefit of immigrant labor to late. In fact, the writing is on the wall, no pun intended, undocumented immigrants are going back to their homelands and less people are trying to immigrate illegally than anytime in recent history.
#32 & 31
I chose NYC and Chicago because they are major metropolitan areas with high cost of living.
Therefore cost-of-living wouldn’t be as dramatic as if say I compared San Jose salaries to that of Biloxi, Mississippi, that then would be a stark contrast.
ok, lets take another city comparable in size but not economy, lets say San Antonio, TX both San Jose and San Antonio have shared the designation as being the 10th largest cities. Starting salary for a 1st year officer is $41,604 what does that equal in San Jose dollars—-$68,570. Now we’re getting closer.
I didn’t say that officer’s are overpaid, go back and read my initial comment, I said that they are not UNDERPAID.
All of these stats are based on starting officer’s salaries, so Kathleen to your point that NYPD officers can make upwards of 90K, yes that may be true, but I’m talking about 1st year officers.
I’m not anti-police, I have loved ones who work in law enforcement, I realize its not an easy job. I simply want to make the point that they are not underpaid.
#30 pontificated without supplying a credible prrof that “The fact is that the undocumented workforce contributes to the tax base more so than it takes from public services.” Show me the stats.
But that unsubstatntiated statement does not speak to the undocumented NON-WORK force—the problem pregnancies that make their way to San Diego County, and probably the southernmost counties of all border states.
It doesn’t address the countless illegal aliens taking up space in our county jails and prisons before they are deported, only to return again in many cases. When they are sentenced for crimes WE PAY FOR their incarceration. We should send them back to Senor Calderon to deal with.
It doesn’t take into account that the children of illegal aliens get breakfast and lunch at school gratis, while natural born kids have to pay in many cases.
It does not account for all the ESL teachers we pay for made necessary in great part by the tens of thousands of illegal aliens in our schools, getting a free education in their language that they could never get in Mexico, or wherever else they are from.
It does not account for free public defenders and free certified translators provided at our expense to those charged with crimes.
It does not account for all the illegals working for cash, off the books, who pay no taxes on their earnings, yet are “entitled” to government services like MediCal and those listed above.
#34
Don’t forget the cost associated with illegals driving unregistered and uninsured cars. When they cause an accident they flee, so the insured driver ends up paying the bill. Which results in all or our insurance rates going up to cover the uninsured.
I wonder who is paying the tab for the poor kid, and his father, who was recently hit in the crosswalk on Story Road by the illegal, unlicensed, uninsured “immigrant” on his way to work? Perhaps the business that hired him should be held responsible.
Jamie said” My fear, is that the Kathleens and Christians of the world will realize the benefit of immigrant labor to late.”
Are you serious? Legal immigrants are just fine with me; it is the illegal immigrants that I am concerned with. Illegals are breaking the law, regardless of how you try and justify their supposed usefulness. What type of message do you think they are sending their children by blatantly refusing to follow the law? Telling children by mere virtue of your actions that they get to pick and chose which law they must adhere to based on their perception of fair or unfair is just ridiculous Jamie. Come on get real here.
Unfair laws you say, be whose standards? If they are so unfair, why aren’t politicians who are supporting and turning a blind eye to employers hiring these illegals being ousted from office, and replaced by those who do what they are elected to do, carry out our laws and serve “our” people, not illegals? Because people like you make excuses for them, and keep voting them back in office!
Further, you point out another crime being committed by illegals, identity theft, but you gloss over that by saying they are adding to Social Security etc. Are you kidding me? Identity theft doesn’t stop there Jamie. Illegals take out loans, and credit under these poor unsuspecting persons Social Security Numbers! I guess their victim’s rights must take a back seat to illegals unlawful actions too? Right?
As both JMO and Blue Fox so aptly point out illegals cause financial harm to tax payers in other ways you’ve neglected to acknowledge. I guess you’ll come up with some other type of justification for that too. It is just amazing to me how you can walk through life with blinders on like that, and can so easily make excuses for this type of blatant disregard for the laws of our country, and lecture us on the usefulness of lawlessness.
Again, I’d love to see you explain to a legal immigrant why you think illegals rights should take precedence over them, and try to convince them how unfair our laws are, especially given that these folks obeyed the law regardless of the difficult process they endured for years.
And finally, first year Officers don’t make very good money Jamie, no matter where they live. You can babble on and on about how our SJPD Officers are over paid all you want, but I disagree with you. The cost Police Officers pay in their own personal lives, and the loss their families go through when one of them is killed by some lawless idiot, is not something we can ever compensate them for, regardless of how much they earn.
Kathleen,
I’d be afraid to live in your world. As long as you find as acceptable nomenclature the use of the word “illegals” then there is really no point in arguing with you. By designating the children of undocumented immigrants as “illegals” you are basically saying that they are worthless, when in fact they are not and will as is history has shown us, become a integral part of the United States of America. The fact is that 1st and 2nd generation and those immigrant children that were brought over at a young age have no value to this economy in your mind is preposterous; when the facts clearly show that they will contribute to the tax base in excess of what their parents contributed or took away. You can “cherry pick” (as one of the hate-monger lunatics wrote on this blog post), by singling out incidents that have come across your experience, but frankly your experience and mine for that matter don’t mean squat when compared to the overall benefit UNDOCUMENTED immigrants have to this economy.
Worry not, you have plenty of people who support your vision and if the Immigration and Customs Enforcement fulfills their goals, then 12 million or so people will be repatriated to their country of origin. But think about what that will do to certain industries. The AFL-CIO is in favor of permanent visas for these workers and it would alleviate many of the concerns that you and your NIMBI-brethren have their feathers ruffled about.
Kathleen, I’m sorry but I have to observe that you don’t listen very well:
“I didn’t say that officer’s are overpaid, go back and read my initial comment, I said that they are not UNDERPAID.”
“I’m not anti-police, I have loved ones who work in law enforcement, I realize its not an easy job. I simply want to make the point that they are not underpaid.”
“Even with cost-of-living adjustments, their salary is nowhere near “underpaid”
Jamie how old are you?
You are the one viewing this situation through bias glasses and you are making serious unfounded statements about others and me. First of all, I WORK with illegals all the time to protect them from scummy companies that get them into legal contracts they don’t understand, or deprive them of wages, or screw them on mortgages. I help them when their American born children are thrown into jail for breaking the law. These are just a few of the ways in which I RESPECT and honor the LAWS of this country. What may I ask are you doing to make things better for them within the law? You know the law that is color blind and designed to protect everyone regardless of status?
Secondly, your accusation that I view illegal children as worthless is outrageous and stems from a clearly biased, racist viewpoint held by YOU. You point out one place in any post where I said HALF of the ridiculous things you are claiming I said. I’m hearing you just fine, you just don’t like the answers you’re getting. You are reacting emotionally because you can’t win the argument with FACTS! How very sad for you that you can seriously think that people who want the law respected equals people who are cold and heartless enough to see children starved or harmed, or their illegal parents go homeless. I’d like to meet the parents who raised you and send them for parenting classes.
FYI-My mother and sister migrated legally into this country along with more than half of my friends. I know first hand their struggles and I will stand firm that illegals do not deserve special privilege over them, or American citizens. Mexico and other countries have not stepped in to stop illegal immigration because they are more than financially profiting off of funds these “undocumented” illegals are sending home. Why in the world should they do anything to make sure their own citizens have medical care, food to eat, jobs, an education, housing, and clothes to wear as long as America is doing the job for them? Why on earth should they care that companies in America are abusing illegals, and underpaying them as long as they benefit, and people like you are busy demanding that America, a country that can’t even care for its own citizens be required to help illegals, instead of holding these countries like Mexico accountable for their inhumane actions towards their own citizens?
And finally, in my opinion Jamie, not underpaid, and undocumented equals, illegal, and overpaid.
37 – Give up. You can’t have a serious discussion with someone like 38 who accuses but provides nothing factual to back-up her diatribe.
Her posts speak for themselves. You don’t need to waste your time trying to reason with her.
Next case!
#39- Glad you aren’t really sitting on the bench in a court of law! Or are you? Now that is a frightening thought…
40 – Why? Expecting an argument to be fact-based seems unreasonable to you?
#42- Jaime,
Agreed. You and I both care about the well being, and the treatment of people, we just differ on how to go about it.
Any way, our fake Judge Judy may be arrested for Identity Theft if we don’t move on.
Enough with the animosity. Let’s Kum-ba-ya already.
JC
#37 opined: “By designating the children of undocumented immigrants as “illegals” you are basically saying that they are worthless.”
Where do you get that idea? They ARE illegal, Jaime. That doesn’t mean they are worthless, but they are still not here legally. Hence, they are illegals.
I personally believe many illegals provide services that Americans won’t. I disagree with the folks who believe otherwise, because the plain fact is that those native born white Americans won’t do the work the illegals do for the same money. But that doesn’t mean that they are not still illegal, Jaime.
#44, People who are actively involved in spending our tax dollars to provide housing for illegal aliens find that fewer taxpayers know they’re being robbed if they hear euphemisms like “undocumented immigrant”.
By the way, Jaymock. You said “native born white Americans won’t do the work the illegals do for the same money”. It’s that “for the same money” part that is the whole point. Take the illegals away and suddenly native born Americans would be doing those jobs but they’d be paid decently.
Econ 101. Supply and demand.
So the wealthier people who tend to provide most of the service employment would be a little poorer and the workers would be a little richer. Voila. You’ve just broadened the middle class and moved toward a healthier, more sustainable society.