Yesterday’s news that the city had mistakenly overpaid employees who were reservists called up to active duty since 9/11 certainly presents the council with a dilemma and the citizens of San Jose with a not-too-rosy view of the city payroll accountants. Some of the soldiers returning from stints in Iraq have received letters demanding repayment of thousands of dollars. How did this happen and what is to be done about it?
State law dictates that the city must cover up to 30 days per year of a reservist’s pay difference while undertaking military duties. The San Jose City Council further extended this to the entire time of a city employee’s service, given that many were being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan for several months. While I believe this gesture of support to be a necessary generosity to these volunteer service men and women who take a big pay hit when called up, I don’t understand how the city accountants could have made such a slip-up and why the employees didn’t notice the sometimes huge discrepancy between the amount they expected to receive and what they were paid themselves.
Nonetheless, having received the payments and paid the income tax on the amount, it seems a harsh measure to demand immediate repayment from these citizen soldiers. The city attorney says that the payments were illegal “gifts” and strictly speaking must be repaid. However, you would think that a council who is considering giving members a hefty new package of lifetime benefits when they retire, applied retroactively, would, instead, come up with a plan to forgive overpayments to the reservists.
In the opinion of a majority of Americans, the war in Iraq was and is a terrible misadventure. Our volunteer reservists and their families took a huge hit in this imperialist Bush/neocon escapade and have already paid a big enough price. It seems to me that the majority of the citizens of this city would not have a problem with the council excusing these overpayment debts in whatever way satisfies the law. It’s been done in other cities where there have been similar problems, apparently, including New York. At the same time, the council must find out what went wrong with the accounting on this program and make those responsible answerable to the public for this mess. I am wondering what else these City Hall bean counters have screwed up.
This is an unfortunate error but that should not be compounded by gifting public funds. Obviously, some councilmembers have no problem giving away public money, but that does not make it right.
The city went above and beyond what they were required to do. Why should the rest of the city suffer this loss of funds that were overpayed? It was a mistake—shouldn’t have happened, but it did. If our bank makes a mistake and incorrectly “gifts” us funds we are not due, do you think the bank will give it to us?
The money does not belong to these vets, it should be paid back in some method that does not create a hardship. It is not their money—the only discussion should be how to pay it back in a fair manner.
Jack:
We know you hate Bush so much you can’t keep it out of anything you post, but try from now on, OK? We know how you feel.
That said, the reservists should be able to keep the money and the city accountants who screwed up should be fired for incompetence.
Hugh
NAPPER #1
You are right—I was too kind in my words; this is way more than a “slip up.” Those responsible owe the public an explanation and dismissal may very well be in order.
GIL #2
I agree that this is a city issue not a veteran’s one. The city employee/reservists are fortunate that they have been looked after by the council. Do you think private employers would be as generous? I don’t think the Wal-Marts of the country are doing the same.
4 – It’s pretty difficult to discuss anything about our mess in Iraq without bringing up Bush. If you think the accountants should be fired for incompetence, I can only assume you believe the same should be said for Bush. After all, nobody died as a result of the accountants incompetence.
I was overpaid once. First thing I did was to call HR to ask if we had a bonus or something. Next question I asked was how do I give the money back.
One problem with forgiving these overpayments is it would grant a bonus to some, but not all, of the city employees who were called to active duty.
The majority of city employees called to active duty might well feel cheated that they did not benefit from this “slip-up.”
The best solution is probably to allow the employees to repay the overpayments interest free, at very low rates.
Another possibility might be for local Veteran’s organizations to contribute to a fund to help employees who face financial hardship as a result of the repayment. Our Mayor-elect, could put his lifetime memberships to good use in organizing such a fund.
I would have been skeptical if I were one of those vets and got a check that seemed too large, and would have inquired before cashing it. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
But, the blame is definitely on the accounting team. Every effort needs to be made to fix this in a way that doesn’t cause financial hardship for these guys who ended up risking their lives for an arrogant commander in chief’s harmful and deadly pet project.
I’ve noticed that wherever this story is reported the public’s compassion and gratitude for the veterans is presented front and center. It shouldn’t be. This issue isn’t about honor or courage or sacrifice, it’s about educated professionals interacting with simple arithmetic.
Why do I believe this to be the case? Simple: the apparent apathy of the veterans coworkers at the police department. These officers work for an agency of over a thousand employees, fellow officers who routinely provide financial and moral support to coworkers visited by tragedy or loss—fellow officers who possess far more insight into these matters than do we, the public. Yet, I have heard nothing of the troops rallying to the rescue of their coworkers, and I see that as significant—especially when you consider how painlessly such a large workforce could cure this debt (probably less than a dollar a month, per employee, for one year). Could it be that the coworkers of these veterans’ hold them to a standard higher than that portrayed by reporters in the media?
Why should this issue even be on the council’s agenda? They didn’t miscalculate the payroll; they didn’t fail to notice the overpayment; they didn’t spend it. If there are real victims here then let their problems be solved by those who can do so without a bending of the rules; those close enough and tough enough to distinguish honest error from reckless irresponsibility—or devious scam.
We don’t know enough yet to make an informed decsion about what to do. We may never know, since personnel matters are exempt under The Brown Act.
Every extra bit of legitimate help should be given to those who put their lives on the line going to fight in Dubya’s ill-advised war. But giving them the difference between their National Guard pay and what they were making at home is as far as it should go.
Small overpayments could easily have been overlooked. But I find it virtually impossible to believe that someone who got an extra $20k didn’t notice it. I wouldn’t want to play golf for money with those persons. They are not trustworthy. The recipients of large extra bucks should have questioned it, instead of keeping quiet and hoping not to get caught. I absolutely don’t buy that one person’s comment that he just assumed the accountants knew what they were doing giving him all the extra money.
The accountants who made the mistake should be punished appropriately, based upon a full investigation of why the errors occurred. But the employees who knowingly accepted large sums of money over and above what they were entitled to should also be investigated, and punished as appropriate, as well.
Two years ago I received a check in the mail from the IRS for $182,000.00 and some change. I walked over to the IRS office in the gold building with the check and asked them about it. Apparently there was a key punch error and they issued me a refund for a large portion of the taxes I had paid the prior year. I gave them the check back and they actually thanked me for being a good citizen. Was someone punished? I don’t know but I doubt it. The point is, it is not their money, soldiers or not. It is taxpayer money and it should be returned. Right is right, error or not.
Too bad the election results still haven’t sunk in with some people—people like Cindy Chavez. She wants to explore the option of giving the public funds to the vets. She still is clueless on the concept of giving away money that is not hers to give. We certainly dodged a bullet with her losing the election. Let’s hope she doesn’t have too many opportunities to give away our money before she leaves office.
San Jose did right thing to pay difference between military and city pay – wished everyone did
Overpayment issue is not about vet’s sacrifices, service or war right or wrong like Jack and others want it to be
It is about vet’s personal integrity and ethical responsibility to public or lack of it
1) Did they realize being overpaid – Yes / No ? A few thousad overpayment maybe, but overpaid by $6,000 or more they knew when filed income taxes and saw higher income
2) If they knew overpaid did they do ethical responsibility – Yes / No ?
Overpaid Vet’s who knew but failed to notify city – have questionable personal integrity and failed ethical responsibility to public by keeping money
Does San Jose have a oath of office? Many oaths have ” will honestly and ethically perform my duties ” Did they meet this standard ?
#3,7,11,13 and 14
I am with you. What lesson does all this teach our children? Is the NFL making up Pat Tillman’s salary, I don’t think so. Real heros are not about the money, they just do the right thing.
I once had my tax person misplace a decimal point in my favor on my refund. It was a glaring mistake. Would the IRS have caught it? I don’t know. Did I want to find out? No. I contacted my tax person and questioned the error and she ended up sending me a revised return.
Oh, and I quit having her do my taxes after that.
In the second paragraph you refer to this as a
“slip-up”. I would call it a major blunder. If this was done in the private sector the accountants would be fired. Why should they not be fired here. The city of San Jose deserves better employees. I too, wonder what other areas the accountants have made blunders in. FIRE THEM…
I wonder how many vets, really cared about OUR money, If they took a hit while in Iraq, ask any vet that has been there and back. Is it really about the money? HELL NO!
Do we really take great care of our Vets? Some of you that post pointing your finger at the guy that recieved a sum of money because of some bean counter at Silly Hall, should think about your coushy little world and butt out. dodging land mines and self exploding Iraqis can not have a price tag.
It’s discusting to even concider what is beening stated here. How can any of you HONEST guys compare yourselves with a guy that’s sucking it up just to live thru the day.
Sorry, I can’t seem to stomach the thought of some guy safely in front of his computer sipping on a glass of Pino Noir, asking some guy in Iraq to pay him back money that does’t belong to him. Need I say more?
The Village Black Smith
Do only the survivors have to pay back our eligal gift to our reservists. Hardly a question anyone needs to answer. I concider the extra money the least we can give for the actions they were sent to risk.
Now would be a good time to resturcture reembursements and overpays within our city. I think we can all agree on that.
In any event It is a city issue, not the veteran’s issue.
If need be I’d kick in, but only after this present administration is gone.
The Village Black Smith
#19,
There you go again, like most liberals, deciding for everyone which businesses should succeed and which should fail. Let us know what else you support so we can eliminate all the companies that don’t suit your vision.
How can we stop people like you from using the political process to force society to live their lives and spend their money according to what you think is best?
20 – Gee, just by my not shopping at Wal-Mart I am deciding for everyone which businesses should succeed and fail?? You certainly put words in my mouth that I did not say, but that’s nothing new for many on this board.
Thanks for all the power you’ve given my one voice. I certainly hope you are not “average. ” I’d like to think that the average person is smart enough to actually think for themselves and live their lives in a way that does not inflict damage on others. I could be wrong.
#5 Again with Wal-Mart?
“Wal-Mart had noted in a news release Thursday that on the same day Edwards was criticizing the company in a conference call with union-backed activists, the volunteer staff member had asked a Raleigh, N.C., electronics department manager to obtain a PS3 for the ex-senator’s family.”
http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061116/APF/611162631
That’s 100% prime cut, grade A, top shelf, do as I say, limousine liberalism.
So on the day after Thanksgiving when you’re at WalMart with your armload of bargains… that lady in line with the raincoat, sunglasses, and big floppy hat? She’s from Marin.
The uncomfortable looking guy in the Wal-Mart parking lot with the Kucinich bumper sticker? He’s from Berkeley.
Viva Fidel!
The handle “Novice” speaks volumes about that particular blogger’s point of view.
21- Fair enough. This threw me off…“I think the small business should survive without a Wal-Mart coming to town with the single goal…”
You see most liberals, and I’m still not sure about your position, think that Wal-Mart should not be “allowed” to exist in “their” town. I was under the impression this was your stance. Is it?
And by the way, running small business out is not their goal. It’s a byproduct of free choice.
23 – Appreciate your willingness for fairness. I don’t think Wal-Mart should not be allowed, but I don’t care for their business practices so I don’t go there. As long as they operate within the law, build according to their permits, etc. let them operate. I, and others, will not shop there. Many others will shop there. Until such time they are found to be in violation of the law, as far as I am concerned, they can operate.
I do think, though, that one of their intentions is to run out all competition, which includes small businesses.
24- I wish our local representatives held that approach and would let all companies operate under the same laws, unfortunately they don’t.
I’m pretty sure that Wal-Mart’s intentions are the exact same as every other business that has ever been started.
#24, I agree with you. From what I have read, Wal-mart not only drives out the independent store, but also eventually ruins many businesses which produce items sold at Wal-Mart because WM demands such low wholesale pricing. I too avoid the store; I was raised to support the independent and do as often as possible. Don’t forget when WM expanded so rapidly throughout the US and who had Sam Walton as his #1 political contributor.
Unbelievable. Somebody is actually defending Wal-Mart. Full disclosure, I’m probably considered liberal by some, and I have NEVER been inside a Wal-Mart and never will. So, Novice, I don’t know what liberal, conservative, or moderate has to do with shopping at Wal-Mart, but I wanted to pull that argument out from under you at the start. You can’t really be serious about defending a company like this. What about standing up for the little guy? I think the small business should survive without a Wal-Mart coming to town with the single goal of putting them out of business. Maybe that’s not very liberal, but I support small business. What about you?
The reason the left is so down on Wal-Mart?
It’s because the left care’s deeply about the little business owners!
Absolutely laughable.
The left is owned by big labor.
Wal-Mart is non-union.
Big labor wants to unionize Wal-Mart employees.
Until Wal-Mart is unionized, the left’s marching orders will be to hate Wal-Mart.
Viva Fidel!
Wrong again, Novice (as usual). I voted for Reed, have opposed the Labor takeover of San Jose, and I don’t shop at Wal-Mart because of their predatory practices, their censorship of what books and music they will the public to purchase their, and their questionable employment practices. I could care less if the are union, as long as they treat their employees fairly (wages, working conditions, etc.)
Everyone I know who doesn’t shop at WM does so for the same reasons. The union has nothing to do with it. Nice try at avoiding the real issues.
#27- Don’t assume that I’m on the left, my opionion of Wal-Mart, Sam Walton and his buddy Billy Boy, has nothing to do with unions. If you used your brain, you’d realize that small businesses do not operate with union labor.
It’s called economic darwinism.
Don’t want to deal with it? Go to France and shop.
Viva la Fidel!
I don’t shop at Walmart because it gives me the creeps, forget about everything else!
Yikes! Some people are just plain hopeless. Give it up. You’ll never get through to him.
How did we get to whether we should forgive the overpayments to National Guard troops deployed away from home to a discussion of the relative merits/sins of Wal-Mart?
Thanks, Mark! I too thought it wasn’t worth my energy. Who said econonic darwinism was good, it may be the way it is, but I’m for choice and not choice decided by large conglomorates. I’d sure rather enjoy the ambiance of Willow Glen and other such shopping venues than WM etc.
And, back to the original topic of this editorial. Right is right, the accountants made a mistake, a reasonable date for return of excess reservist pay should be made without the council having to take their time to rule on this matter.
Village Blacksmith,
1) If you are advocating that we treat and pay our military and veterans better most are with you especially those who have served in combat
VA and Bush administration has treated our vet’s and military very poorly and continues to
cut benefits and unnecessarily put them in harm’s way for questional political or ego goals
2) If you are advocating vets keeping taxpayers money mistakenly given to them many vets and most of the public will disagree with you
Yes you – Need I say more? – to justify your belief that it is ok for vet’s to have questionable personal integrity and failed ethical responsibility to public by keeping the money after knowing it was mistakenly given to them
Your statement does a great disservice to our many vet’s belief in “duty, honor and country”
How can you justify their not fulfilling their duty and where is the honor in taking / keeping the money that is not theirs but the taxpayers –
Honorable vet’s would not do so – 2 wrongs do not make a right
Not one thing I posted is not factual. Not one.
– John Edwards is a hypocrite. Check.
– Left is owned by big labor. Check.
– Big labor wants to unionize Wal Mart. Check
On the other side we have gems like:
“I do think, though, that one of their intentions is to run out all competition, which includes small businesses.”
“From what I have read, Wal-mart not only drives out the independent store, but also eventually ruins many businesses which produce items sold at Wal-Mart because WM demands such low wholesale pricing.”
All this from the denizens Silicon Valley, arguably one of the most hypercompetitive places on earth. I get the feeling that this board is chock full of Mr. Magoo’s.
And then there’s this whopper:
“and I don’t shop at Wal-Mart because … their censorship of what books and music they will the public to purchase their”
Imagine a private business deciding what it wants to sell! Yikes, you better call the ACLU – and quick!
And it’s a sure sign the lunacy shark has been jumped whenever Mark T shows up.
Viva Fidel!
32 – How right you are!
32, 37,
It’s really not worth responding to Novice. His posts show he has mental retardation. He also obviously has a persecution complex and probably tortures animals.
I’d suggest ignoring him.
Vet # 2 The number fits.
I do not advocate a dam thing! What I have said is , I would be willing to kick in some of what has been stupidly given away. This is only a symtom of what this increcible stupid administratin has been doing since day one.
These guys in Iraq, don’t give dam about you, they just want to come home. We would all love to find out who you are you nameless prolotareate.
When Gonzales took office, this small politcian took the San Jose Hall of Fame with out even a thank you, from Us. After 5 years of our design, several hundred patrons were attending, many CEOs were comming to the Sports Athourity Dinner.
He (Gonzo), needed that base , and thus our little foundry was scraped. The first year of Compac was a tragedy. We said little. Now, we have survived. Many of the contracts, good old boy BS, is history. Yet when one sees the money flow , one can see who the players are. I have chronicled the arena contracts for Gonzos assention to date. No one said a dam thing when we unvieled the $500,000.00 plastic snake.
You bet I’m irate, I should have taken these guys out behind the San Jose arena.
I said to my Village Black Smith Son today, No politicion will ever take from us what we have help create, for our village.
The sacrifices our children are suffering in Iraq, are not my issues to call. Our children are there because our leaders put them there. Is that not troublesome enough with out you and yours , wanting to connect them to an incompetent group that is at the point of indictment.
I learned that some have respectfully come forth to advise of the over payment.
That does not excuse you from your derogatory statements you nameless poster.
The Village Black Smith
It’s not going to be that easy abc – this is a calling. Consider..
“And then the Lord sayeth unto Novice “Go forth and layeth the smackdown most mightily upon the blue pagans with great folding chairs of truth”.
So it is written, so it shall be done.
Viva Fidel!
I used to coordinate VA benefits for college students. If the VA overpays vets or their dependents, they expect the money back. So, why would the City of San Jose be any different than the feds?
This is a very obvious example of the sad state of our police force. How can we count on these people to protect and serve if they keep money that is not thiers?
If they were credible people with integrity and solid charactor; they would have returned the money.
What’s next? Are the rank and file and leadership going to abuse expense accounts? Are they nickle and diming us for extras?
Someone should do a detailed audit of these hero’s! There are probably a lot of issues!
Gil Hernandez
Your comment ““You bet I’m irate, I should have taken these guys out behind the San Jose arena.”
And done what? Physically threatened or attacked them for stating opinions?
Your very angry implied physical threats are inappropriate and are why many do not use real names to make comments about improving our community SEE #42
“I do not advocate a dam thing! ” is another angry statement while advocating your many ideas some of which are good but your anger and name calling gets in way of others listening to you or your understanding other opinions
Gil, please go to anger management counseling
I agree with #43 that Gil makes angry physical threats and should go to anger management
What happened Gil – too close to forge all week and forgot to take your anger medication or need a stronger prepcription
Reread your # 2, 17 and 35 posts – very hard to follow
What does your #39 “We would all love to find out who you are you nameless prolotareate.” mean?
proletariat
a. The class of industrial wage earners who, possessing neither capital nor production means, must earn their living by selling their labor.
b. The poorest class of working people.
You are angry or upset at – poor working people, Vet’s Opinion or Vet’s Opinion 2 ?
and want to take – Which “guys out behind the San Jose arena ? – To do What ?
Perhaps those were not the right words to chose. I would not have the Elephants, Zebra, Monkeys, confused with the last comments of my post. But thank you for rescueing the folks I was focusing on. You are all alive and well. You may find this next two terms quite challenging. Good to hear from you folks again. It must have gotten lonely under that rock you’ve been under .
The Village Black Smith
I missed the exciting conclusion—what has the city decided to do? Or is it still studying the issue, or paying a consultant a few hundred K to investigate and report to the council?