Turmoil on Immigration Forum
The off-again-on-again forum on immigration and enforcement at the Mexican Heritage Plaza is now on again. That’s good.
Turmoil erupted at the eastside center in the last few weeks when the Commonwealth Club and the Plaza scheduled a discussion between Art Torres, head of the State Democratic Party, and others, including Chris Simcox, a founder of the Minutemen—the vigilante border patrol operating in Arizona and hoping to expand to California. Threats of protest, or even violence, caused the event to be cancelled.
Now it is on again.
The days after the cancellation and a Mercury Editorial prompted many individuals to urge the sponsoring groups to proceed with the debate. Despite the insensitivity of originally having the event on Mexican Independence Day, it will now occur in November, vindicating the cherished concept of free speech and the exchange of ideas, even some odious ones, which we all value. When this center was first proposed and then nurtured by the diligence and love of my Vice Mayor, Blanca Alvarado, it was to be a heart for our entire region.
Now for a bit of perspective: a generation ago, the Nazi Party was staging a rally in St. James Park. This was as repulsive a gathering there as the 1933 lynch mob and much of the hatred in the air at the very thought of such a group was palpable. Voices called for its cancellation. It came to a head in a raucous meeting of the San Jose City Council where one singular and courageous voice of reason, attorney Phil Hammer, husband of future Mayor Susan Hammer, strongly voiced the opinion that only by listening and combating such apostles of hate could the most critical responsibility be discharged. The Nazis came and were appropriately received.
In another event, years later, in the mid-eighties, the Immigration and Naturalization Police instituted an absurd policy of entering San Jose with little coordination with our police department, and terrorizing many legal and illegal Latinos, often at churches or shopping areas. To coin a phrase, I decided that “this will not stand.”
Chief Joe McNamara, Blanca Alvarado and I met with a chuckle-headed Reagan appointee and informed him that if these raids by La Migra continued, jeopardizing years of positive community relations by our police in Mexican-American neighborhoods, that his agents might well be the ones arrested. The incursions stopped shortly after that meeting.
There is no doubt that immigration is one of the seminal issues that is forming modern California and our own city. It is important to discuss, listen, and debate with others of good will – and even a few without it – in order to reach the best solutions for our citizens, current and future. Such solutions have been noticeably absent in recent years from any source.
There is a fountain at the Guadalupe River Park near Arena Green, with a rock carrying the names of many of the diverse people of our city. Walk by it soon – it will give you a very warm feeling.
Enforce the borders?
Deny non-citizens drivers licenses?
That’s absolute 100% racism!!
When anyone is invited to speak at a public forum out here that has an opinion that deviates from the uber-correctness that permeates this place – the ‘authorities’ cancel the event.
The reason given? (it’s practically a cliche)
“We can’t guarantee security.”
The real threat to security in this case will be the attempts by the ever vile, race baiting, Art Torres to incite a riot.
What happened in this instance that motivated our ethically moribund city leaders to stand up for someone’s right to express a point of view?
There must be more to this than our civic leaders simply feeling an obligation to uphold the right to free speech.
How is big labor benefitting from this?
I can’t speak for everyone, but having a bunch of white, fat, old vigilantes patrol our southern border sure does make me sleep better at night. Regrettably, however, I do think these guys have missed their true calling. If they really wanted to serve our great Republic, they’d scatter themselves about along the Iraqi-Syrian border. I’d be happy to do my part as a taxpayer by contributing some reasonable sum toward the cost of their plane tickets.
“…my Vice Mayor, Blanca Alvarado,”
That’s funny, I thought she was San Jose’s Vice Mayor!
Since when is September 16, Mexican Independence Day, an important date in SJ or even anywhere in California?
Roughly a couple of generations ago, to use Tom’s method of capturing time, Cinco de Mayo was designated as the day to celebrate by some very misguided folks, and the rest is (overrated) history.
About a generation ago I happened to be exiting the Art Institute on Michigan Avenue in Chicago on 9/16 and looked out onto the street to see a huge parade celebrating Mexican Independence, much larger than any Cinco de Mayo celebration around these parts. My friend of Mexican descent was there with me and was just as shocked to see this group getting it right—and in a town where the Mexican population has nowhere near the clout and influence they do around here. You don’t shut down the Miracle Mile for just anything. We were both impressed and felt once again that unlike “the city that knows how” to our north, our home town of SJ was the city that can’t get anything right.
One really has to wonder if holding the forum on 9/16 as planned would have brought protests related to the timing as well as the forum participants. Maybe it would have put the date in the spotlight so the celebration of cultural pride would eventually get shifted to the 9/16 date where it belongs.
The Merc had a good article on this that stated Cinco de Mayo is just another day in Mexico. I guess “Cinco de Mayo” rolls off the tongue better than 9/16, which I won’t even attempt to spell here in Spanish.
The forum needs to go forward, and instead of protesting there should be constructive input by those who have issues with the participants. That will accomplish far more than a bunch of yelling and shouting by people carrying signs outside of the building.
Mark T: September 16 is an “important” date here for the same reason March 17 is an important date over much of America. Hell, as much as many of us loathe the French these days, there is still some celebration of Bastille Day. Oktoberfest is celebrated a lot in the upper midwest, and we have one here in San Hozay.
I’m less certain about Cinco de Mayo, since, as I recall, very shortly thereafter the victory over the French was reversed. In San Jose at least it seems to be Riot Day.
At the end of the day,we must recognize that many celebrations in the USA arise from the different cultures that make up this country. So, let’s just join the party. If everyone is Irish on St. Patrick’s Day, why can’t we all be Mexican on May 5 and September 16?—two for the price of one!
A very long time before the movie “A Day Without A Mexican” was released, I realized that without immigrants—mostly Mexican in Califa and a big percentage of them “illegal”—California would shut down in two weeks or less. Who would bus the dishes in all restaurants, and cook in many of them? Who would clean houses, do the gardening, be nannies for the wealthier among us? These are all necessary jobs, and despite what all the anti-immigration folks say, there aren’t a lot of native-born white guys clamoring for those jobs.
The bigger problem is the failure of all these hard working people to integrate into our society, as waves of foreign, non-English speaking people have done for the last couple of centuries. I am still stunned to hear that so many Mexican people who make the news are heard through interpreters, although they have lived in this country for a decade or more. We must discover why so many Mexican immigrants in particular absolutely refuse to learn English, no matter how long they have lived here, legally or illegally. It subjects their children to a guaranteed second class life here.
If I understand Mr. McEnery’s “cherished concept of free speech and the exchange of ideas” correctly, the citizen volunteers who monitored the Arizona-Mexico border:
… should be pejoratively branded as vigilantes, despite the fact that the Minutemen have not, by intent nor action, done anything to justify such description. Webster defines vigilante as “a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily.” Clearly, the Minutemen do not suppress and punish, just as Tom McEnery does not misuse words without malice.
… should be allowed to participate in the exchange of ideas because, here in San Jose, even “odious” ideas are tolerated. Odious, Mr. McEnery, is in the nose of the sniffer, and as far as I’m concerned, the bias so evident in your depiction of the Minutemen reeks—big time.
… have done something to deserve to have their free speech defended by a linking of their rights to those of the American Nazi Party and other “apostles of hate.” I don’t suppose Mr. McEnery would appreciate someone using the racist content of KKK.com to defend the blogging rights of SanJoseInside.
Would it be possible to introduce an alleged “exchange of ideas” in a manner more unfair?
Why do some find it necessary to portray the Minutemen as ogres when it is clear that they are merely citizens who want the law of the land enforced? Is the presence of patriots with telephones at the border really offensive, or is it more the case that these citizen volunteers dare to witness and document that which others wish to remain unseen? And lastly, have they done something dreadful to deserve such disrespect or did I miss a local proclamation from the Windbag Formerly Known as Blanch that declared the Minutemen to be as repulsive as Nazis?
Why does it border on racism to even suggest that the border deserves defending? If it wasn’t designed to separate Mexicans from Americans then it wouldn’t be called a border. Make no mistake about it, that line down there is a real border; our rights as Americans stop there, as does the reach of our law enforcement—just ask any Texas Ranger who had to screech to a halt when his fleeing felon made it across the Rio Grande. If it’s a border to be respected in one direction, it’s a border to respect in both.
Mayor Tom, who ran his administration as he saw fit, blows his own horn for his part in having kept the INS from doing its job in San Jose as its bosses saw fit. Big achievement! Such political pandering spared the feelings of a few lawbreakers while paving the way for the millions of illegals who now fill our prisons, crowd our hospitals and schools, and clog the entrances to our Home Depots. The illegal immigration stampede of the 90’s could not have happened were it not for the widespread application of the appease-on-demand politics Mayor Tom now brags about. Now you tell me, who was the real chuckle-head?
Today’s post should be viewed as Exhibit A in the People of the United States versus Political Correctness. How sad to see an accomplished man with his education tucked so tightly between his legs. What is it about the Mexican-American community that causes politicians to think it necessary to surrender reason, dignity, and respect for the rule of law when addressing with them any of the hot-button issues? Is this disregard genuine or just condescension disguised as solidarity? Ask yourself this: name a politician who does not demand that the laws authorizing his power be respected, or that he or she be dealt with in a reasonable manner and afforded the dignity of their office? Stumped? Me too.
So what is it? Why do the politicians who rely on the law for their authority want to disregard it when it comes to Mexican-Americans? Is it the assumption of politicians that when it comes to dealing with Mexican-Americans borders can’t be borders, citizenship mustn’t matter, and the law should not be allowed to offend? Do politicos really think so little of them as Americans? Don’t they realize that there are Mexican-Americans at the top levels of law enforcement, national security, and the judiciary? Is it beyond the politician’s capacity to believe that these patriotic Mexican-Americans really believe in the jobs they do, the oaths they take, the sovereignty of the land they defend? Can’t they accept the fact that Mexican-Americans do not require coddling and are every bit as capable of accepting the rules and responsibilities of civilized life as anyone else?
Apparently not. So instead they portray decent, concerned citizens as demons and hide from the results of their own malfeasance.
The border issue is simple: There are people who believe in the law and national sovereignty and people who respect neither rule of law nor any nation; and it is the borders of the former that keep out the latter and make possible for a nation to achieve greatness.
Three people and a cardboard sign counts as a “major protest” in San Jose for crying out loud!
garbage.
Is this blog part of some 12 step program where you say nice things about your enemies.
Finfan, you speak that which no politician in this city or state would ever dare to. Keep it up.
JMO, your “Riot Day” assessment of 5/5 couldn’t be more on target. Not only is the date of celebration misguided, but so are the celbrants who make fools of themselves instead of demonstrating pride for their heritage.
Your closing paragraph says it all. This group that refuses to assimilate and learn English probably would picket outside the studio where Carlos Mencia tapes his shows, if they could only understand what he’s saying about them—in perfect English.
Finfan is right. It’s time the politicians stopped treating this group like some third rail issue. Captain Fallon gets the equivalent of a table by the kitchen—but not before spending years on the waiting list—while a giant dog turd gets plopped on this town’s living room carpet, all the result of a few uppity types crying foul before a wet noodle mayor and council. This type of fear does not belong in the council chambers. What’s it going to take? Do we elect a bunch or arch-conservatives as mayor and council or do we just allow this type of bullying to contine? I don’t know which would be worse.
Tom,
Your call for “free speech” even when the speaker and their view is unpopular is welcome. Moreover, this blog has provided many a speaker with the ability to air their unpopular views.
There is no better way to identify the prejudiced, the unwise, the illiterate, the unintelligent and the dangerous—then by allowing them to expose themselves with their own ignorant comments.
And while allowing free speech is an important value, speaking out against those who poison the dialogue with hate, spread fear through ignorance and advance their own agenda with untruths is even a greater good.
This board has been a model for exposing ignorance. And if ignorance is bliss, finfan and Mark T may be among the happiest people on earth.
I might add, that had Native Americans employed the use of the minute man model, had abundant quantities of gun powder, enforced less than humane immigration policies and carried deadly diseases that affected European populations: the history of this continent would be far different.
By the way, do Native Americans celebrate Thanksgiving?
If ignorance is bliss, Mr. Robinson, allow me to brighten up your day.
You wrote:
“There is no better way to identify the prejudiced, the unwise, the illiterate, the unintelligent and the dangerous—then by allowing them to expose themselves with their own ignorant comments.”
Sir, what could be more ignorant than to respond to specific points and opinions with hollow hyperbole? Please explain: were you having a politically-correct tantrum, or do you dispute that illegal immigration has overwhelmed many of this state’s most important (and expensive) institutions?
You wrote:
“And while allowing free speech is an important value, speaking out against those who poison the dialogue with hate, spread fear through ignorance and advance their own agenda with untruths is even a greater good.”
Hate and fear? Please, Mr. Robinson, try to concentrate on the written words and ignore those voices in your head. I suggest that you remove that homemade aluminum foil, ray-proof helmet from your head and go out and get some therapy.
You wrote:
“And if ignorance is bliss, finfan and Mark T may be among the happiest people on earth.”
I can’t speak for Mark T, but I’ll cop out to being a happy man; a condition I credit to my firm and fearless grip on reality. I suggest that you, as one who is obviously racked by guilt over the treatment of Native Americans many years ago by Americans long-dead, take a good look at a calendar and try to reacquaint yourself with the world in which you actually live.
You wrote:
“By the way, do Native Americans celebrate Thanksgiving?”
To pose this question in they way you did is to assume that all the Native Americans spread out over this great country all behave and feel the same way about anything, something I would never do. Now who’s ignorant and racist?
Feeling better?
If a rag tag group of volunteers is what it takes to embarrass Bush into securing our borders then they should be given medals IMO.
The flip side to “Life without a Mexican” is that “innovation dies when faced with an abundance of cheap labor”. The jobs will get done. Supply and demand will take care of it – but you’ll pay more.
If faced with having to pay a fair price for labor Californians might start doing things for themselves again like cleaning their own houses or cutting their own grass.
Wild, wacky stuff to be sure.
I always get a good laugh when I read about issues with Mexico get equated with racism. For the record, there is no such thing as a Mexican race. Mexico is a country, not a race.
Finfan,
Illegal Immigration is a oxymoron. The history of this country, which is uncomfortable for most, is the story of illegal conquest combined with illegal immigration on the part of the majority.
It’s easy to dismiss, we are here, we won, move on. Sorry, responsiblity begins at home.
Now we blame people for entering our country “illegally”. Yet without these folks, we can’t afford vegetables, our hotel prices are too high, and every job we are unwilling to take becomes their only means of support.
How do we thank them after we exploit them? We discriminate against them and anybody who looks like them.
Halliburton steals billions from us, we give them more government contracts. Yet, an “illegal alien” who contributes to the wealth of our lavish lifestyle is a “law breaker”? Take their contribution out of our system and our economy would tank in a NY second.
Illegal immigrants do not cause a majority of our problems nor have they overwhelmed our institutions. That is simply hyperbole. It is a myth, it is a lie and it allows people to justify their prejudice.
We just spent $200 Billion on Katrina, not counting the generous tax-deductable donations given by average Americans. If we pumped $200 Billion into the economy of Mexico, people would not choose to come here—then our lifestyle would suffer.
As for who is ripping off the society, start with Halliburton, move to Exxon, Mobile, Shell and Cheveron any member of the Bush Administration.
But don’t despair, after you’ve paid them all they require, you will still be able to survive on the cheap vegetables provided to you by illegal immigrants who are living on less.
Your arguments are specious, your logic convoluted, and your prejudice is evident for all to see.
Yo! Frustrated FinFan:
I agree with some of your opinions in this blog and others. That means I disagree with other opinions you express.
I rant. You rant. Mark T rants. Richie Robinson rants.We all have a constitutional right to rant.
However, I rant under my own name, as does Richie. Many others do. You don’t. BIG NO-NO.
If you have opinions you are proud of, please have the balls to express them under your real name or shut the ^%&* up. Yeah, I know you also have the right to mouth off and wuss out by not telling us your name.
Is there very much difference between those who blog under pseudonyms and the KKK clowns who don’t have the balls to show their faces?
Rich is right.
Thank God the illegal aliens arrived – and just in time too – for this country was going off the cliff.
– great piles of unwashed dishes were piling up in restaraunts everywhere
– uncooked fast food was not getting cooked, people were backed up for miles in drive-thru windows
– yards everywhere had grass 5 feet high
How this country ever survived for 200 years prior to the great flood of illegal aliens is one of the great unsolved mysterys.
Novice,
That’s the point,. We couldn’t survive without new immigrants.
Whether it is the Irish, Italian, German, Polish, Dutch, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, or Latin Americans from all nations (partial list)—all have contributed to this nation.
The new “illegals” are the “citizens” of tomorrow. The sky is not falling.
Immigrants contribute to our society far more than they take and if we are worried about people taking from us—we should start with those who steal the most—see Bush Administration.
Also on the upside, the new Americans get to share the $10 Trillion debt Bush will leave for future generations to pay, thus lessening the burden on our own children. Isn’t America great?
John Michael,
Nice rant.
Mexico has plenty of resources – yet why is it they can’t get their country out of the 3rd world mud?
Corruption will be king in Mexico as long as the US continues to take any and all economic refugees from Mexico.
It’s a great setup – Mexico unloads it’s unemployment problem on the US and in return gets billions of dollars sent back to Mexico annually.
Small wonder then that Vincente Fox screams everytime there is debate in the US about securing our border with Mexico.
Building an Israeli style wall between Mexico and the US is the only way to force real reform and will lead to long term prosperity for the good people of Mexico.
The hand-wringing and the blaming of the current plight of illegal aliens on the United States and people of pallor is nothing but self-loathing limousine liberalism at it’s worst.
Mr. Robinson,
We live in a nation of laws. That it suits your politics or interests to have certain laws ignored does not distinguish your argument; in fact, it puts you in the same boat as the pot heads who don’t want marijuana laws enforced, the pimps who don’t want vice cops kicking in their doors, the right-to-lifers who want to block the doorways of abortion clinics, and the looters in New Orleans who believe that TV’s are free when it floods.
However, if you believe that the border should be erased then please say it and defend your position—explain how this nation can absorb an unlimited influx of needy people foreign to our culture, and please, make this issue yours to peddle to the politicians who might employ you. Let’s see how many of them will want you and your hair-brained immigration platform on their team.
As for the economic argument, and I know you might still suffering from the influence of your socialist college professors, any attempt to assess the effect that illegals have on our economy that relies only on the cheap labor they provide is fatally flawed. That cheap labor—which drives down wages, by the way, comes with many hidden costs, almost all of them absorbed by the taxpayers. California prisons (where one out of every two Mexican inmates is illegal), schools, and hospitals have all been stressed to the max by the arrival of the illegals. There is no free ride to be had, and those of you who enjoy cheap maid service and lower dining costs need to thank your fellow taxpayers for providing the subsidy.
As for the jobs we Americans “refuse to do,” speak for yourself. As a young man I picked produce, washed dishes, served fast food, and swept floors until late in the night, all on the way to bettering myself. Lots of young men did the same—it used to be considered part of the American Dream. By the way, some of my best coworkers back then were Mexican-American. All were here legally.
The we-can’t-do-without-them argument is just another smokescreen, one that kept Democrats in the majority and allowed California to stumble right onto the brink of bankruptcy. Anyone who claims that illegals haven’t strained our institutions on the breaking point is either uninformed or a liar.
Your suggestion that a $200 billion gift to Mexico would turn that country around may be the dumbest thing ever posted here. Where did you get the idea that the people of America should surrender their earnings to soothe an incompetent foreign nation? Fidel Castro? And why should anyone believe that a country that has proved itself pathetically incapable of capitalizing on its abundant natural resources could properly capitalize on a $200 billion gift? Even if 90% of the money wasn’t pilfered off the top, it would still only compute to a one-time pay-out of about ten grand per family of five, hardly a life-altering amount (even less than might be sent home annually by a family member working in America).
As for your calling me prejudiced: who cares?
JMO (#16),
Congratulations on using your own name on this site. Glad to see you exercising your freedom to do as you choose. Too bad you don’t respect the right of others to do the same. By the way, I checked all available lists of BIG NO-NO’s and didn’t find the one you referred to.
Oh, and thanks for comparing my blogging anonymity to the hoods worn by the Ku Klux Klan. Nothing extreme in that analogy. And wouldn’t be easier and more civilized for you just skip over my annoyingly anonymous rants rather to tell me to shut the f… up?
It’s heartening to know that people are willing to speak up for Hispanics who to come to America to pick lettuce, bus tables, clean the homes of the wealthy and other jobs “WE are unwilling to take.” (Emphasis added.)
May I respectfully suggest that prejudice comes in many forms?
Mal Content,
We won the revolutionary war. Part of the victory was to allow anyone the right to utilize free speech, in their own name, without fear of retribution.
Alas, some still seek cover out of fear.
Cowards die a thousand deaths, a brave man only one.—
OK, I was going to stay out of this, but Rich, your remark about the Candadian border is ridiculous.
What Canadian in their right mind would feel the need to cross illegally into the U.S. where we are overrun with people of low intellect and poor judgement who are carrying loaded guns, where we are dealing with thugs who use assault weapons to make their point, when Canada has a populace that knows how to think and behave responsibly, so much so that people generally don’t even lock their doors, and has enlightened leadership that rewards this responsible behavior? Why would they ever want to leave?
Conditions in Mexico couldn’t be more different and people are constantly fleeing. These people have only the best intentions, they are steeped in humility, but as soon as they make contact with the uppity noisemakers here in California they are poisoned with a belligerant attitude of entitlement by those who got here before them and feel that this part of the U.S. still belongs to Mexico. I don’t even want to imagine the toxic polluted mess that California would be if it was still in Mexican hands. And that’s not a swipe at the people of Mexico, it’s aimed directly at their inept and corrupt leadership.
Hey, come to think of it, we’ve got inept and corrupt leadership in D.C. and Sacramento right now, don’t we? Maybe we’re on track to become a toxic mess all on our own.
Mark T.
“Illegal Immigrants” are not here for our entitlement programs. They want to work. Most are afraid of any government authority at all.
But thanks for making my basic point. Canadians have no reason to flee to the U.S., if conditions in Mexico were similar to Canada they would have no reason to come to the U.S. either.
It’s the economy. . .you finish the sentence.
Finfan,
So many issues so little time.
We have too many laws. Just because it is written as a law, doesn’t make it right. Opposing bad laws is part of the foundation of America.
Nobody asked the Pilgrims for a green card when they arrived at Plymouth Rock.
Do I believe we should have free and open borders? The answer is yes. There are no minute men on our Northern Border and the Canadians don’t seem to be a major problem for us. It is easy for Canadians to get to the U.S and vice versa.
Is this because they are white, eh?
Only our southern border gets patrolled.
The $200 Billion answer was for argument purposes only. We need to strategize on how to help make our Mexican friends full partners in our global economy. When a Mexican worker can make as much in his own country as ours, there will be little need to cross the man-made border illegally. Moreover, should their quality of life not improve?
And, given our historical intervention into their political processes, the Mexican people and, infact, all the peoples of the Americas are owed something by United States.
Passing NAFTA and allowing our Corporations to take advantage of cheap labor, bad environmental laws and then selling the consumer goods back in the States, does little for the Mexican economy and hurts our workers.
Cost of “illegal Aliens” to California is about 9 billion after you subtract what they give in taxes. The real savings come in the form of cheap vegetables and cheap manual labor for jobs most “citizens” are not willing to accept.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1338451/posts
However, how many employers have been fined for using illegal help? How many employers skirt the employment laws, tax laws, and health and safety requirements in their exploitation of this population?
I’d venture we could put a major dent in that $9 Billion just by fining employers who violate current law.
You demand respect for the law from the illegal alien, why not the employer?
Nobody wants to consider themselves prejudiced in this society. But Ernesto is right.
As long as I eat cheap vegetables, stay in hotels and utilize the services provided by cheap labor, I am part of the problem.
The difference is that I don’t blame the victim. Moreover, I empathize with their plight, do not want them to suffer any more than they do and will speak out for their rights when they are unable to do so.
It’s not perfect, but it’s a start.
Richard Robinson wrote:
“Do I believe we should have free and open borders? The answer is yes. There are no minute men on our Northern Border and the Canadians don’t seem to be a major problem for us. It is easy for Canadians to get to the U.S and vice versa.”
Now that you’ve revealed your radical position on the border question, I invite you to educate the rest of us by explaining the basis for it. Like, for instance, an example of a safe and successful modern nation that doesn’t control its borders. I’d be fascinated to know how its labor force maintains its earning power and how the state’s social safety net sustains unlimited need, not to mention how the culture survives the influx of self-interested foreigners who have no stake in the host country’s future. And if you can’t provide such an example, then how about just giving us something based on more than the guilt you feel for the history and superiority of this country, the continued failure of the Mexican nation, or your obvious discomfort over skin color differences.
Or are we supposed to jeopardize the great nation we inherited and our children’s future on nothing more than your particular politics and sense of justice?
The call for open borders is simply a new approach to an old idea, one that has been discredited in its earlier forms by its own many failures: the redistribution of wealth by political mandate. Witness the tactics employed by the open borders’ proponents: the fostering of class resentment/hatred, the planting of seeds for thought crime laws (accusations of racism, hate speech, and the branding of the Minutemen as villainous vigilantes, etc.), the shouting down of opponents, and, of course, the threats of violence (such as those aimed at the Minutemen). These are the very tactics that led to the “liberation” that enslaved Russia for most of the last century.
Though you may view yourself as man of compassion, Mr. Robinson, you are dangerous, for you believe yourself the absolute arbiter of righteousness (no matter the law). Your repeated accusations that I am a racist are nothing more than a divisive, stifling attempt to shout down an enemy, as un-American here on this board as it is when done by the self-righteous punks at UC Berkeley. And, true to the totalitarian roots of your belief system, you desire to take the money that I have earned through my sacrifice and hard work and give it to someone that YOU believe more deserving. Given the authority, people like you would allow your endless compassion and the folly of your great plans to lay waste to this entire country.
As history shows, there are no tighter borders than those around the nations that engage in such redistribution of wealth—borders brutally tight not to restrict entry, but to keep its most productive and talented citizens imprisoned in an environment that goes against human nature.
Since the issue of the anonymous blog has come up again, here’s a link that may be of interest:
http://sanjoseinside.com/sji/blog/entries/what_would_thomas_jefferson_say_about_san_jose_inside/
Rich,
We may have won the Revolutionary War but ballots are still cast in private. Does that make the voter a “coward”?
There are many people who have legitimate reason to fear retribution if their on-target posts step on very large toes. How many city workers frequent this blog?
You are in the business of politics so perhaps it’s easier for you to let your views be known. While I won’t presume to tell you your business my guess is that you are hired because of your political affiliations. Others have customers, clients, and bosses of various political stripes to keep happy…and families to feed. And they have opinions to share.
Personally, I am glad that forums like this exist to allow for unbridled give-and-take, even if it sometimes gets a bit rough. If I find fault with finfan’s posts it would be with his logic, certainly not with his on-line identity.
The managers of SJI have, IMO, made a very fair decision to allow anyone with a point of view to post within a fairly reasonable set of guidelines. Like it or not, those are the rules here. I don’t think it’s fair to fault anyone for operating within those guidelines.
“As long as I eat cheap vegetables … I am part of the problem.”
Can someone explain to me what causes the anglo liberal to be so self loathing and so hell bent on trying to atone for being a person of pallor?
But I digress…
Is it conceivable that white people, Wal Mart, Halliburton, vegetable eaters, Tom Delay, etc al. are not to blame for the immigration problem?
Could it be that the corrupt Mexican gov’t is the root cause of the problem?
Could it be that if the Mexican gov’t managed it’s wealth of natural resources properly that there would be good jobs and it’s people would not be forced to head north looking for work?
Could it be that an open border to the Mexican gov’t is like an open bar to an alchoholic?
Here’s a .02 breakdown:
– Mexico ships all their unemployable people north
– Mexico receives back millions annually from these same people
– As an added bonus Mexico doesn’t have to provide any services.
Finally, Fox gets to use the plight of the illegals as a distraction whenever things get tough and the spotlight too hot on the homefront. “Look! Look over there at how the evil American’s are mistreating our people!”.
I Haven’t had this much fun on this web site in along time. Dodging arrows and *#+##** things. To the couch anylsts of this Imigration situation I say to you.
The next time you sit down to eat or drink anything, anywhere, consider that you are putting product that has been “iligally” harvested, raised, & produced into your ungrateful face.
Most resturant menus should have posted, like cigarettes, all food prepared “here” has been iligally planted grown, prepared and served. “You must however bus your own dishes!” Wrong again!!!!!
Every house, building, street, worked on should be equally marked. And finally you should have stamped on your big fore head “Enabler”.
Please pass the Iligally made Wine.”
No, this is not an imigration issue this is an issue that Mexico and the USA need to come to terms with. You got to hand it to the Mexicans. They get here thru our elite border Patrol. Millions. I find that quite resorceful. And all they want to do is feed some jerk that sits on his butt and uses the labor from these folks. Hell yes! Send another 50 billion to Iraq!
The Minute Men, they got to get a life. If they spent more minutes in fore play, perhaps the little wife would not let them stray to some secluded brush coverd desert dressed like hunters. Enough Harold! Go home and take care of business, or did she leave you for the gardner, milkman,fence repair guy, or house painter.
So, I’ll be looking at your big fore head as you pass, for that “Enabler” stamp. Remember it’s ok to endulge, as long as you are not in denial! All my Jams made from the coast are labled ,example: “All Amexican Preserves” 2005 Ollaly Berry Pino Nior 100% Iligally Harvested. Made in the USA Legally by A Mexican. Go figure!!!
http://www.bronzemanufacturer.com
Gil,
I’m pretty sure everyone is well aware we benefit from illegal labor – so what’s your point?
We managed quite well before the arrival of illegal labor and if the day comes, we’ll manage quite well without it.
This notion that the country will fall apart without illegal labor is a complete load of crap.
Your my point Novice! Your too defensive. You are too irritated with my comments. I’m simply stating what is. I belive I know who you are. And who, is “we”? The “crap” you throw out there is all in your head. It belongs to you!
Read my blog again and this time do it while your not indulging in a iligally harvested Ceasar Salad or is that Cesar Salad?
John Michael has cajones, you don’t measure up.
Novice, who ever you turn out to be. This country will always be strong and free. The only way it will degenerate is with the help of those that are not engaged in the good will of community.
Thanks for engaging, I guess we’er Engaged you showed yourself. Thanks!
The Village Black Smith
Gil Hernandez
Rich:
You did a wonderful job of exposing Finfan’s baseless arguments.
Finfan’s ignorance—of which he has an over-abundance—is aptly expressed by his comment “explain how this nation can absorb an unlimited influx of needy people foreign to our culture. . . .”
There is no distinct American culture. American culture is diverse and varies from from State to State, City to City and town to town precisely because each State, City and Town aborbs people from differents parts of the world. Indeed, the San Jose culture is infused with Mexicaness precisely because of it is home to many mexicans (oh, and the fact that San Jose was once Mexico).
San Jose is also interesting because there are people like FinFan who choose to distance themselves from others because they are different—from a different place, different skin color, different accent. Every town and city has its alarmist and racist. Accordingly, have FinFan.
Mr. Hernandez may be onto something; maybe what Californians really need is an accurate and in-your-face accounting of the impact that illegal aliens have on our day-to-day life. That way, when deciding whether or not to hire that underpriced landscaper or buy that bargain lettuce picked by illegals, we’ll be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not to partake of the fruits of their illegal labor. Perhaps we might even be provided with an alternative source of those goods and services, using a labeling system like they do with organic products, so that those of us willing to pay extra for “Red, White, and Blue” goods and services could do so.
Same idea for the costs those illegal workers (and their many non-working family members) pose to the government. The extra costs could be tabulated so that they might be born only by those Californians who support the presence of illegal aliens in the state. Then generous taxpayers, like the many open-minded people on this board, could voluntarily pay a proportional surcharge to supply government services to the illegals who provide them with the benefits of their presence. That would free people like me, you know, those who believe that our immigration policies should be based on federal laws rather than on Mexican shoe leather, to avoid the unfair tax burden along with forgoing the so-called advantages of uncontrolled borders.
Man, would that make a tasty proposition for an election! Based on the history of state voters on this issue, it would pass with a landslide, leaving the big-hearted, “what would we do without them” people of this state trying to figure-out just how big a chuck of money their egalitarian convictions will cost them. Meanwhile, the majority of us should enjoy enough of a tax break to pay a few extra bucks an hour for a landscaper, house cleaner, or fruit picker.
I figure it will take less than a year for most illegal immigration supporters to migrate over to the other, affordable side of the issue (liberal convictions tend to evaporate rapidly when directly billed). Who knows what would follow? Maybe it would result in even higher hourly wages for those in the “Red, White, and Blue” industries as well as cause the massive layoffs necessary to motivate most of the Mexicans back to their side of the border. Once there, with no easy outlet for their frustrations and unmet needs, maybe they’ll find the strength to force some long-needed changes in the political/economic policies of THEIR country.
Novice,
I’ll send you a jar of my “All Amexican 100 % Illigally Harvested Legally made in the USA Preserves by an All Amexican.”
That may be a start for the cure of the anxiety you are carring of not being able to admit you are not respectful of the very people that produce the foods that sustain you.
Fin Fan, you don’t sound “Frastrated” to me!
Well, breakfast is about ready. Today I’ll try the 50% Illigally Harvested StrawBerry Peach/Chardonay. ( I picked the peaches from my tree) the wine is from a family winery in Carneros. Yummy!!!
Gil Hernandez
The Village Black Smith
Mal,
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.—FDR
People have fought and died for our right to post under our own name. If all the dire predictions of intense political retribution regarding opinions expressed on this board had materialized, at least, for those of us whose use our own name—we would have ceased to have been effective long ago.
If a person like myself can survive the slings and arrows that come with expressing your own opinion, then anyone can do it.
It is one reason I always post with my own name, hopefully, it will embolden others.
I note that Jude, Tom, Kevin and John all post with their own name, say very controversial things, and are all successful at what they do.
No one should advocate the banning of speech, even when the speaker is too timid to identify themselves. But we should encourage people to stand up for themselves, even if what they have to say is unpopular.
Just one view.
What are you talking about re salads and gratitude?
You know, I don’t remember back in the 70s thinking “Wow I should be thankful to the farmers that grew this corn or to the white college kids in the kitchen that cooked the hamburger and washed the dishes”.
Why should I feel any different now? Just because it’s an illegal picking the lettuce instead of a black/white guy I should be grateful?
You’re guilty of racism on this one Gil, no?
One thing that I find disturbing about the whole illegal labor issue that I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere is related to this notion that the US can’t get by without illegal labor.
What kind of attitude is that?
That this country has forgotten or lost the desire to work hard?
That we deserve or are entitled and somehow above it all not to have to work hard?
This perceived dependance on illegal labor is yet another warning sign that the US is decaying from within.
BTW, don’t misunderstand me Gil, I really feel for the Mexican people. But place the blame where it squarely belongs – at the feet of the Mexican govt.
Yo, FinFan:
I saw a cartoon in the Murky News yesterday that you would probably like. Mallard Fillmore. The picture is the U.S. border. A sign reads: “POSTED. Trespassers will be given free social services, jobs, in-state tuition, and lots of other cool stuff.”
Today’s is “Inside the mind of a California Legislator.” First baloon: “Let’s see..we have a chronic influx of illegal aliens who strain our social service systems, some of them who carry types of turberculois that cost more than a million bucks per patient to treat…” Second balloon: “…and some of whom could be terrorists. Obviously…” Third balloon :”…these people need driver’s licenses.”
Novice 10:
There are way too many people here whose time is far to valuable to them and to others for them too clean their own houses, mow their own lawns, or even to cook for themselves, for that matter. Thus the need for a steady supply of cheap labor.
The fact is, many American born folks just won’t take those jobs, but immigrants do. They used to be European immigrants, like my grandparents from Ireland and what is now The Slovak Republic.
I’m for letting anyone who wants to work into this country, and booting out those who don’t want to work, even if they were born here.
Novice #17: This country survived 200 years by a constant influx of immigrants who wanted to work.
Now we have five generations plus of people born in this country whose favorite word is “entitlements”.
FinFan #21:
I do respect your freedom to do as you choose by remaining anonymous. That’s not the issue I have with the practice. I’d just very much prefer you keep your ideas to yourself if you haven’t the guts to identify yourself. It’s just plain cowardly. If you believe in your ideas you should be proud of them, instead of hiding behind a pseudonym, just as the KKK guys hid behind their sheets.
JohnMichael O’Connor proclaims:
“I do respect your freedom to do as you choose by remaining anonymous.”—
And to prove the nature of his “respect,” Mr. O’Connor informs me that due to my choice of anonymity he’d prefer that I keep my ideas to myself. He then suggests that my anonymity is based on my lack of “guts,” accuses me of being a coward, questions the sincerity of my words, and compares my behavior to that of the Ku Klux Klan.
Gee, any more of that kind of respect and I’d be locked up in Guantanamo Bay. Who taught you your concept of freedom, Joe Stalin?
I’ll just bet that you, Mr. O’Connor, are never so insultingly offensive with your words when face-to-face with a man whose opinions you question as you are here on this website. When was the last time you publicly called another man a coward? Or denied him his right to speak his mind?
You don’t need to answer because the answer is obvious. It is not possible that you or anyone else living in this society have made it a habit of hurling fighting words about with such an absence of provocation, or you’d be where all such careless men invariably wind-up: in jail, in traction, or interred.
For anyone at SJI reading this: Next time you are in need of a column theme please consider revisiting this issue. I promise to do my part to make it lively.
FinFan:
There is a world of difference between respecting a person’s right to speak his/her mind and respecting the person who speaks it behind a fake name.
I don’t deny you your right to speak your mind. I just question someone who speaks anonymously. I grant that you make some good points, but there’s a lot of venom there…as there is sometimes in my remarks. The difference is attribution, or lack thereof in your case. It’s real easy to blow off on one thing or another anonymously. It’s more difficult and more honest to do it publicly.
I’ll be happy to speak with you face to face and tell you the same things I express here. I can be found daily at 160 W. Santa Clara St. Ste. 1200, SJ 95113. Come see me and I’ll be happy to tell you what I have told you in print—I believe anonymous bloggers are gutless, with the exception of inside whistle blowers who have a legitimate fear of retaliation. If you tell me you are such a person, I’ll accept that at face value and back off. But if you’re just some intelligent blowhard who won’t blog for attribution, I do not have respect for that.
Do you have the right to express your views? Of course. Do I believe people who express their views anonymously have the right to do so, of course. I just have no respect for people who won’t stand up for their views by telling us who they are. If you really believe it, put your name on it, be proud of your opinions, many of which, I say again, I agree with. I respect a lot of people’s views with which I disagree.
You ask, who taught me my concept of freedom, Joe Stalin. Who taught you yours? Freedom requires responsibility, which means standing up in public for what you believe. There was another blog here comparing anonymous bloggers to the pamphleteers in pre-revolutionary America. You ain’t that, near as I can tell.
Mr. O’Connor,
In post #42 a statement was made; it was:
“I do respect your freedom to do as you choose by remaining anonymous.”—
That statement was offered with, to use your term, attribution. You claimed it as your own.
Tell me, what good is it to be able to attribute those words to you, given that you obviously don’t believe them? As you make clear in your subsequent post, you do not respect me or anyone else blogging anonymously. Here are some more of your words:
“I just have no respect for people who won’t stand up for their views by telling us who they are.” (#44)
First you say you do, and then you don’t…
So, the question becomes, why did you even pretend to respect my anonymous blogging? Was it because it seemed like something that the person you want to be publicly perceived as should acknowledge? Was I afforded a little respect, albeit brief, because you think the readers of SanJoseInside would approve of JMO’s largess and objectivity? You certainly didn’t misrepresent your feelings without a motive. So now I guess it will be up to the readers of your posts to try to figure out what you really mean. Such is the price when we worry more about how our words will effect what others think of us rather than how our honest beliefs will impact the dialogue.
Face the truth, Mr. O’Connor: You do not respect me or anyone else who partakes of freedoms of which you do not approve. You do not embrace the freedom of speech without reservations, and had you the authority, you might well demand restrictions, such as demanding that protesters or picketers be first identified by the police. So disturbed are you by the unattributed message that I can only imagine how you feel about a voter’s right to privacy.
Disrespect me if you must. Enjoy it. Repeat it often, if you’d like. I’d rather endure your honest disdain than suffer your insincere tolerance.
FinFan:
I respect the RIGHT to blog anonymously. I just don’t respect the PEOPLE who do. Get the distinction?
Perhaps an example will make it clear to you. The ACLU lawyers who defended in court the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, ILL. were almost exclusively Jewish. They respected the RIGHT of the Nazis to march in Skokie. They had no respect for the Nazis themselves or their views.
I do have respect for all of your views and agreement with some of your views. I respect the RIGHT you have to express those views. I do not respect YOU for posting them anonymously.
Does this sound familiar to anyone?
“Years ago, France welcomed their parents as labor, often to do menial jobs most French did not want, they noted. And now, there are no jobs _ or no one willing to give them one, they said.”
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/07/D8DNR5GG6.html