In the course of the next two weeks, San Jose’s civil and criminal courts will be discussing the use of Tasers by law enforcement. This week in federal court, the Salinas Police Department and Taser International faces a jury in the case of a Salinas man who died after he was stunned 30 times by Taser-wielding police officers. The trial will be closely watched by San Jose attorneys and future plaintiffs who are aiming for their day in court against Taser International and the San Jose Police Department.
This is also the week that the family of Steve Salinas, a father of four who died after being tased on May 25, 2007 in San Jose, will file a federal lawsuit against the San Jose Police Department and Taser International. Salinas, a former Marine, was naked and unarmed when police arrived and tased him after a disturbance call at his motel room at the Vagabond Inn. The family is planning a remembrance vigil on May 26, 2008, at City Hall.
In the criminal courts, the Custodios, a family who have become a galvanizing force in the Filipino community against Tasers, will be facing a jury for resisting arrest charges. On February 5, 2007, 18-year-old Marlo Custodio was tased after being handcuffed, and his older brother, Romel Custodio was tased for over 40 seconds according to police reports, an unusually long and dangerous blast duration. Both were unarmed.
San Jose was the first major city to arm every officer with Tasers in 2004. The city decision, which was widely supported even by civil rights organizations, came after the shooting death of Cau Tran, a Vietnamese woman who was shot in her home by an officer with a gun. San Jose officials bought into the selling point made by Taser International that Tasers, billed as a non-lethal weapon, could be a safe alternative to a gun. Five years later we have learned we were sold an empty promise, based partly on wishful thinking, and partly on San Jose’s compulsion to try to be on the “cutting edge” of technology, even in its policing. So far, we have had five deaths in five years. Indeed, Tasers have not reduced the number of officer-involved deaths; they have only created a new way for death to occur. And a study by the Coalition for Justice and Accountability, a group that initially supported Tasers in San Jose, points out that officer-involved shootings spiked to near record levels, following a five year decline after the introduction of Tasers. In short, the belief that Tasers are an alternative to deadly force was a fallacy, and could turn out to be a costly one for the city, as Taser victims continue to file suit in civil court.
Tasers, though, were actually never intended to be used in the place of a gun because it is not reliable enough for officers to use in situations where deadly force is deemed necessary. The blast actually only brings down the target 60-70 percent of the time, hardly the assurance officers need when in a situation they may feel they need to use deadly force, such as when a suspect has a deadly weapon.
All of the problems with Tasers are not just inherent to the weapon, but how and when officers use them. The San Jose Police department has consistently denied requests to release usage reports on Tasers. However, studies from other cities are troubling. The City of Houston, after a high profile tasing incident involving a NFL player, did a study on the first 1,000 taser deployments over a 2 ½-year span, and found that 95 percent of the time, recipients were unarmed. The Custodio and the Salinas family would not be surprised. The argument for shelving Tasers builds momentum the longer they are used, and given the city and county deficits, doing it now has a financial rationale. Of course, the most significant number in this debate is not made up of dollars, but of lives—344 killed by Tasers in North America and counting.
Raj –
Instead of making the Police the enemy, as you ALWAYS do in your posts, why don’t you get some experts and/or information on how and when to use Tasers, and offer that to the police, as well as your willingness to work with, and support our local Police Department on this to prevent any accidents or lawsuits? You never give the SJPD ANY credit for anything, or offer your expertise, or your information, in a cooperative spirit. You also never look at the problem they face – you only criticize their actions without giving any solutions as to how to solve the problem they are faced with. All of your posts in some way take aim at the San Jose Police as the enemy. This viewpoint of yours is untrue, it is old, and it gets boring.
What the author has left out was that Salinas had just severely beaten his wife and thrown her out of a hotel window prior to the police arriving. Lets not let facts get in the way of his hatred for the police.
Let’s never mind that SJPD has not shot anyone in over 4 years in large part to havings tasers.
Jack, speaking for myself, San Jose Inside has always presented a balance in the content of it’s authors. While I often do not agree with the author, the balance in presenting both sides is what attracted me to keep reading SJI and checking in. Raj, is so blinded by his hatred of the police and leaving out important facts that his credibility is very suspect, and detracts from the sense of balance. If you are going to allow him on SJI, at the very least you should allow an official from the SJPD the chance to be a guest columnist to present their side of the issue.
Jack –
I agree with Dave – SJI should allow someone from the SJPD to be a guest columnist. It would allow readers to see both sides of the issue, so they could form their own opinions. As has been said, Raj’s constant view that the police are the enemy is overdone, lacks balance and the facts.
Dave and Christian
Many who write on this site support the SJPD, including me, even when we are sometimes critical of police department tactics and policies. In addition, this forum is always open for submissions from SJPD officials and comments from their supporters in the community. I have a feeling we are going to be hearing from some of them very soon.
Thank you Kathleen for being the only one to offer any kind of sympathy to the Salinas Family. As for the others, go ahead and keep defending the unaccountable behavior of the police in San Jose and keep jabbing at Raj for putting out the truth that a lot of us here in the San Jose community know. Truth hurts, but at least it’s better than getting hurt by a taser.
Good luck on getting the police to write about this topic. THey can’t even write a police report to release to the Salinas Family.
#2- Dave,
“What the author has left out was that Salinas had just severely beaten his wife and thrown her out of a hotel window prior to the police arriving. Lets not let facts get in the way of his hatred for the police.”
In addition to that Dave, I believe that the Mercury News quoted the County Coroner who stated that high levels of PCP were found in the blood stream of Salinas the day he died. Anyone familiar with the effects of this drug understands just how powerful and violent someone would behave under its influence. If that is truly the case here, then I think the Police were justified in tasing him, rather than shooting him to death.
Raj, in many of the articles I’ve read regarding taser related deaths, a concern I share with you, findings have never substantiated that the sole reason for them dying was related to being tased. It has been found that people who had pre-existing health problems like heart conditions, or were on drugs at the time, etc., that that was the major reason for the cause of death. I would like to see some stats and some studies done on this before dismissing the possibility that tasers can cause deaths in people who are being tased.
Jack, I agree that someone from SJPD should be encouraged to write on this topic and on many others here on SJI. I think balance is very important on vital issues like this. In fairness to Raj here, I’m not so sure keeping certain facts from the public like, how many people are being tased, under what circumstances, etc. is something I’m comfortable with. I’m not saying we average citizens are in any way educated enough, trained, or experienced enough in any way to make judgment on Police actions taken mind you, but I think certain facts should be made more readily available to us.
I fully support our Police Officers and their efforts to keep us safe from harm. I also know that in every organization there are a few bad apples, and those who abuse their power need to be held accountable for their bad actions, choices, or decisions. I think there are some concerns about tasers that do need to be addressed, but I support tasers over being shot any day.
I have seen and heard Ms. Salinas, who has been fighting for years to find out what happened the day her father died after being tased. From what she said, she and her family have tried very hard to get help from SJPD and feel they have been denied information that could help them get passed this. I don’t think she should have been continually denied access to the information she has been seeking. If I were her and my father died in a manner that I didn’t understand, I would want to know too. My deepest sympathies are with Ms. Salinas and her family. I hope they get the peace they so badly want, and so richly deserve.
Raj makes it a point to say that some of the folks Tasered were “unarmed,” as if that makes someone incapable of doing harm to the police or others. As Dave (#2) posted, Salinas beat his wife and threw her out a window. In the “old days” the PD would probably have had no choice but to shoot the fellow; at least with Tasers there’s a very good chance that the fellow might have survived.
I’m quite concerned about the militarization of local police forces throughout the U.S., but the city of San Jose should be proud of its adoption and use of less-than-lethal options. We can practically guarantee that San Jose officers would have been forced to shoot—and likely kill—many more bad guys if they had not had Tasers available to them.
Police don’t want to shoot people, and to propose to take away an important tool that conclusively minimizes fatalities is a perversion of the department’s mission and values.
Again Dave (post #2) is correct and says it much better then I ever could. Once again Mr. Jayadev is allowed to present only half of the truth so has to benefit his agenda against Taser and his distaste for the San Jose Police Department. Without a doubt, his words detract from the sense of balance that I have come to expect from this website. If I wanted to read this nonsense I would read the Mercury News. Furthermore, I think you will find that the SJPD won’t be setting the record straight anytime soon because they can’t. This is a criminal matter that is still not yet been adjudicated.
I now would like to share my view of Mr. Jayadev but I almost need a flow chart to do it. I hope you can follow me and you can draw your own conclusions. Raj Jayadev is the coordinator of Silicon Valley Debug (which in my opinion has a negative view of SJPD) http://www.siliconvalleydebug.org and Mr. Jayadev is also a supporter of Indybay (which also anti-police in my opinion) http://www.indybay.org. Both of which support Copwatch. There are two active San Jose participants of Copwatch. One is a young black kid with dreads in his hair named Stevens (I think). He is the one you will see with a video camera in his hand downtown harassing police and trying to antagonize police. Trust me. Go to you Youtube and search for San Jose Police and DebugTV together. At the end of one of Stevens’s videos he gives credit to Silicon Valley Debug as the music plays “Fu@k the police”.
Mr. Jayadev, as a coordinator of Debug, I think we all know where you stand. Mr. VanZandt where do you stand for allowing this rhetoric?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaFv5FdVSvw ‘Patrolling the Police- October 07’
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/06/11/18426790.php Attard, Jayadev and Stevens together
http://www.youtube.com/user/DeBugTV
Here Raj Jayadev lands the latest blow in a four decades long assault against the use of force by police officers, an assault that has been led by Leftist extremists and fueled by one simple, unavoidable fact: force of any type, when employed tens of thousands of times, will occasionally result in the death of a citizen (just as exertion in sports will occasionally result in the death of a citizen—a daily occurrence in the US).
Check the history: For many decades preceding the 1980’s, the carotid restraint was considered a life-saver by the cop on the beat. Aware, as people such as Mr Jayadev rarely are, that sometimes threats and pain are not enough to subdue a combative suspect, experienced officers relied upon a wrestling-type hold that was remarkably effective (in other words, it worked where other tools did not: against those high on drugs, drunk, the mentally ill). But guess what? Many of those people high on drugs, drunk, or mentally ill were not, despite the fierceness of the fight they put up, in tiptop health. Some were fat, some had abuse-related medical issues, and a great many were in the overdose danger zone. Add in the fact that increased resistance to force demands increased exertion, and it becomes obvious that fiercely resisting the police is itself deserving of classification as a medical risk factor. So, every once and awhile a combatant died after being subdued by the carotid. And when the inevitable happened, out from behind the many safe little corners of society came the outcries, the protests, the accusations. The cops were brutal thugs, racists, murderers, and the carotid restraint was their license to kill.
So out went the carotid. Felled by politics. Some police departments (LAPD, if memory serves me), abandoned it completely and adopted the extract-compliance-through-pain method that led directly to the Rodney King incident, while others simply dropped the carotid from training. (Subsequent attempts to reintroduce it have had limited success, in part because departments have had to hire smaller, weaker officers to satisfy the diversity lobby, and these officers often lack the physical necessities to master the technique.)
The search for a solution led to officers relying on chemical agents, which proved themselves unreliable, a hazard to the officers, and a tool also not immune to the dead combatant scenario (I believe there were over 100 deaths connected with the use of pepper spray). Inventors followed up with a few Ron Popeil-quality ideas, such as net-projectiles and shock prods, but nothing showed any promise until the Taser, which has now proved itself to be the tool for the times, as even a five-foot female officer can aim the intimidating dot on a big, scary suspect’s chest. Take that away from her and all she can do is draw her gun (as did CHP officer Melanie Singer at Rodney King until she was moved aside by the LAPD meanies toting nightsticks).
Is that what Raj Jayadev wants? Every confrontation with a resisting suspect to result in a drawn handgun and a shooting? On some level I think so. I think lots of dead suspects—especially minority suspects—would serve his purposes far better than just the rare (and statistically inevitable) death following the use of a Taser. Then he and the rest of his deranged clan could lead the call to disarm the police completely. But short of that, or until then, he will just be happy to direct the community’s anger and resentment at the police and away from the “victims of society” who are out there committing crimes.
I don’t know how the Taser will stand up in court, but Raj Jaydev has certainly proved himself a tool—one not nearly reliable enough to post here.
Raj –
In the event that you ever find yourself in a violent confrontation with police I would like to offer you the following options:
1. Taser.
2. 357 magnum.
Your choice.
Are so many officers killed or injured in the line of duty that traditional methods or restraint became obsolete?
Or is this just an excuse to use cool toys?
Hello To All….
I thought I would join this conversation, in regards to my father’s death. I am sitting at the computer, reading a lot of hideous remarks on this blog. Now, Mercury news never really truly states the correct facts in any news media coverage. I think we all know that right? LOL.. PCP??? Where and how did they get that not sure? Maybe from someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about…. Ring any bells?? Now I’m going to respond bluntly to that comment I remember reading it on my lunch break and reading the article that got taken out of context… NO!!! He didn’t use drugs… At all…He had no criminal record until the police decided to place his death into custody…LOl… How do deceased man into custody?? I would truly like to know that??? I’m still waiting on the answers because I only got the partial police report not the full one. I guess that is what my 2 high profile lawyers are for right ?. I also for the record am a Law Enforcement Student whom is now going to school for Paralegal. I would like to state just for the record, How do you treat anyone under the influence of alcohol or drugs or any other type of stimulants like trash? Officer’s you are trained with no excuses to handle this in a professional manner. Why should a person be deceased after a confrontation? You came to the hotel because of a noise disturbance call. Not exactly sure what room it came from huh?? I know how you work, !! Remember I’m ten steps ahead of the game, and it’s all good. All I want are my dads police reports and I want the truth. I think I deserve that much, So Me and my family can have closure. I can bet this on my parents that I’m not stopping to get this , and I am also pushing for a ban on tasers within the City of San Jose. Think before you speak, and make any remarks. I am not afraid to speak the truth! And honestly I think most of the bad comments folks are truly getting old!!
Best Regards….
N. Salinas
to Dave (#2) who writes: “What the author has left out was that Salinas had just severely beaten his wife and thrown her out of a hotel window prior to the police arriving.”
—Having read the autopsy and the incident summary I can say Dave that you are incorrect. Salinas was with his girlfriend, and by all accounts was not “thrown out of the window.” The police arrived at the motel for a noise disturbance. Where did you get your information?
For the PCP issue, that again leads to a blind spot in terms of Taser safety—- the impact on those under an influence. Despite Tasers now being used by over 11,000 police departments nationwide, there has not been sufficient study on the risks of the weapon on what has been called “vulnerable populations”—those under an influence, the overweight, those with heart conditions.
For the ultimatum give by MC, I appreciate you bringing the “choice” into the conversation. I think the hypothetical actually proves the case against Tasers. If police are facing a situation requiring deadly force, wouldn’t they want to have a gun, rather than a Taser that does not consistently bring down a target? Consequently, Tasers are actually supposed to be an intermediate weapon. The problem is it has proven to also be lethal—thus the Salinas case. It is these concerns that have even lead police officers to question their use.
Newark Police Chief, Ray Samuels, who decided it was not worth the risk to bring Tasers into his city, also addressed Finfan’s point of carotid restraint, when he wrote, ” I view the evolution of conducted energy devices and their use much the same as I view the evolution of the cartiod restraint. Both had been around for a long period of time and both saw a dramatic upsurge in use as the number of violent assualts on officers increased. With increased use, law enforcement personnel and medical practitioners recognized a substantially higher risk of death, particularly when used on persons that have a predisposition to cardiac arrhythmias arising from alcohol or drug use, pre-existing heart disease or other genetic factors. It is interesting that more than a decade ago, most law enforcement agencies outlawed the use of the carotid restraint or placed it on a level equivalent to the application of deadly force.”
Yo!!
I think that questioning the “non lethal” methods used by SJPD that aren’t “non lethal” is legitimate. Many of you are quick to defend SJPD on any issue need to just step back discus this topic with more objectivity.
Someone stated what is better a Taser or a gun? Well, at least with a gun you know what you’re getting. I don’t think a police officer has time to ask a subject to fill out a health questionnaire before a Taser is used. So from what I’m reading both could have the same lethal results.
Some transparency from SJPD could help answer some of the questions the community might have. Why are the stats being withheld from the public? I’ve been told many times by police officers, you don’t gotta be nervous if you ain’t doin nothin wrong. Give the community the data they’re requesting so people can stop guessing making up stories. Let’s deal with facts.
In #14, Raj quotes Chief Ray Samuels in his condemnation of Tasers:
“…persons that have a predisposition to cardiac arrhythmias arising from alcohol or drug use, pre-existing heart disease or other genetic factors.”
Since there exists no absolutely safe method to take such people into custody when they are combative, it seems obvious that the smart thing to do when confronted by such persons is to be a police chief sitting safely behind a desk or an anti-police activist safe in his own little make-believe world. Sadly, the uniformed men and women out there responding to the concerns of the public, the cops who are obligated to take action, have to take action. And to take action they have to have more than words and opinions, they have to have tools and tactics.
Chief Ray Samuels demonstrates the limits of his own genetics by his willingness to publicly condemn an effective tool without offering an equally effective alternative. Stringing together a few fancy terms is no substitute for responsible decision-making, especially from one who is directly responsible for the safety of his subordinates. (Is this the same Ray Samuels who is receiving both retirement pay and a police chief’s salary for sitting safely on his can? Is that the trick to becoming a valued police administrator, by your willingness to go along with the prevailing political wind?)
Given that there are a number people here who pretend to know better than the cops how to control those who refuse to be controlled, would someone please illuminate all of us readers here at SJI. How about it, Raj, how would you do it? What tool or tactic would you use? What are those “traditional” methods to which Nam Turk refers? If not the carotid, if not the Taser, then what?
So. I am flattered that you spend so much time all up in my mix, but the amusement has passed and now it’s time to kick the facts. I was a victim of a taser in which members of the san jose police department tried to murder me for exercising my free speech. members of the african diaspora are only 2-3% of the population, yet we represent nearly 20% of the arrests. Now judging by the majority of the comments posted most of you are probably attributing this to some sort of genetic deficiency, but here in reality we know that this is the result of racist policies, whether they are written or not. Have you been pulled over for riding your bike and arrested for being under the influence, without being told what you are under the influence for? or followed home by crazed officers and assaulted for simply observing the police? If you haters took the time to get off your high horse and examined the situation, you would realize why just not an angry black man( because that’s what I am right)but vast amounts of people in San Jose say FTP!!(I’m sure you all are intelligent enough to figure that one out. )
P.S. thanks for the advertisement, now more people can see first hand what the real is
Stay Strong, Stay Determined, Stay Young…and Rebel!
~Young Rebel
Finfan, I know you get a kick out of playing Hitler’s advocate, but why must you always defer to authority? Do you assume it’s earned? They’re so wise because they have badges. If that’s the case, I guess they foresaw the death of Mr Salinas when they tased him. That’s some great police work: kill the suspect.
Some people like to keep power in check, and to you that’s a sign of dissent. You think we hate all cops and want them dead just because we question the use of tasers, right? Anarchy will surely ensue if we regulate police power at all.
P.S. “Traditional methods” are obviously whatever the police did to take down a perp before the fancy electroguns came along.
Tasers are controversial not only here, but all over the country. I’m sure the topic merits some discussion.
I agree with the previous posters who would like to hear the SJPD’s point of view.
Whenever I hear about someone naked in conflict with the police, it raises a warning flag that that person is high on drugs. Nudity and violent behavior are common symptoms of certain illegal drugs. I don’t claim any particular knowledge of the cases mentioned, I’m just talking in general.
Police officers are the ones who get called to deal with violent unreasonable people. Ideally the person is peacefully subdued without placing the officer in undue danger of injury.
Whether tasers are the answer I don’t know, but all sides of the issue should be considered.
Kathleen—that is one reality.
The other reality is that many people of color are also harrassed, targeted, and killed by the cops simply for being people of color. Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell, Rudy Cardenas, Steve Salinas, Cau Bich Tran, Johnny Nakao, Sammy Martinez….And they have not lived to tell about it. But those of us who are still alive will do it for them and in their honor.
Raj –
My issue with your posts is your constant anti-SJPD attitude. I would have enjoyed your post if it had focused on tasers, instead of SJPD and tasers. In your last post, you cite some facts – i.e. people with cardiac arrhythmias arising from alcohol or drug use, and state some facts relating to the use of tasers and cartoid restraint. Your post would have had more validity, and would have been open to an honest discussion over the use of tasers as opposed to the debate over SJPD that always arises from your columns. San JOse Police have a tough enough job. Give them a break.
I don’t want to hear about your anti-SJPD views. I do want to hear facts on tasers. Do you think you can do that?
In the interest of balance and fairness, I wanted to share this with the readers of SJI. In the end, and at the end of the day, Frustrated Finfan is correct,“The reality is simple: everyday the cops face combative people who need to be taken into custody.” And in many cases they have not lived to tell about it.
http://www.sjpoa.com/Messages.asp?i=299#Msg299
Malcolm (#21),
How do you honor the dead? By lying about the circumstances of their deaths? By exploiting their tragic fates for your own demented political purposes?
“… harassed, targeted, and killed by the cops for simply being persons of color.”
– There is no evidence that Amadou Diallo was harassed or targeted by the cops, and even less that he was killed for the color of his skin. He was approached because he fit the description of a serial rapist, and killed due to a tragic combination of factors that included his running from the detectives and reaching into his pocket as they closed in on him. I think the evidence is clear that the police made a horrific mistake, especially the one officer who saw a gun that wasn’t there and yelled “gun” to his already stressed and nervous partners.
– Sean Bell had priors for dealing crack, was running with thugs known to carry guns, and was shot and killed during a chaotic incident in which the officers feared for their lives. Were unacceptable mistakes made? Yes. Was race a factor? The evidence for that is slim, as everyone involved in the chaos was black, as were several of the officers doing the shooting, including the undercover who started it all.
– Rudy Cardenas was a fugitive parolee who fled from the police, first in his car and then on foot, after driving by the scene of a police action. He was shot by a lone officer who made the decision to shoot based upon his interpretation of events. Should that decision be questioned? Absolutely. But the case had nothing to do with harassment or anyone being targeted, and there was absolutely no evidence that race prejudice was involved.
– Was Steve Salinas targeted? Yes, but he is the one who hung the target on himself, by making public his berserk, frightening behavior, and forcing good citizens to call the police. His death was his fault. The only real victims are his family and the police officers involved.
– The Cau Bich Tran case shared similarities with the Salinas case. The police weren’t there because they were targeting her; they weren’t there because they wanted to harass her; they weren’t there because of her race; they were there because of her behavior—behavior no doubt quite similar to the behavior that subsequently got her shot. The police officer fired his gun in reaction to the raised weapon in her hand, not her race.
– There was no history of Johnny Nakao having been targeted or harassed by the police. What there was was history of his having mental problems and engaging in dangerous behavior. He was shot while threatening the officers with large knives, only after the police first tried the Taser (an attempt that no doubt increased their personal peril). Race was not an issue.
– Sammy Martinez didn’t ring a bell, and all I could find via Google was a couple of hits about men named Martinez who shot or killed police officers. How ironic.
So, Malcolm, your post, and most likely your entire political viewpoint, doesn’t stand up to simple fact-checking. Your methods are despicable, your motives no doubt pathological. Whatever lessons that might be extracted from the tragedies you listed get buried under your distortions and perverse political viewpoint. Your tactics make nothing better, everything worse. The only thing you seem to be right about is that every one on your list qualifies as a person of color; but given that nearly half of the nation’s population meets that qualification, and the police kill only about one citizen a day, the evidence suggests that they are either not targeting minorities, as you allege, or that their aim at citizens is as poor as is yours at the truth.
#21-Malcolm, you have my deepest sympathies for the loss of your friends. I hope for the sake of everyone, your friends and the many excellent Police Officers who serve with pride, integrity, and honor that there will come a day when we all work together for the sake of what is best for our community.
Malcolm, stereotyping all Police as BAD is as wrong as stereotyping all people of color as criminals. We must look at each one on both sides of this issue as individuals, and hold each “individual” accountable for their wrongdoing. If we become so angry and closed minded that we don’t weigh out the facts of each individual case, and we condemn one whole group based merely on our own personal bias, then we are no better than the very people we are angry with.
As to your comment that the Police kill people just because they are of color, I’d like you to provide documentation to support that statement because I just do not believe that. SJPD is very diverse and employs a large amount of Police Officers of color. I do not believe for one second that Police Officers go around shooting and killing any one just because of their color and for no other reason. If any Police Officer is doing that then they need to be arrested and convicted of murder just like any other murdering thug on the street.
Finfan and Kathleen
You don’t have to believe my reality and the reality of many people of color. That’s okay.
#25- Malcolm,
This is not a racial issue for me. I’m sorry it is for you. The topic here is about Taser use by the Police and whether or not it causes death. Accusing Police Officers of Tasing people of color in an attempt to kill them solely because of their ethnic origin is pretty sad. I just don’t buy that, and unless you can submit some type of documentation to support your statements that they do, well then my opinion on this accusation will stay unchanged.
You don’t have to feel sorry for me. It’s not about being sorry and it’s not about me convincing you that people of color are targeted by the cops. “Sorry” isn’t what drives me nor is it what my own people want.
That’s funny you want documentation of racism. I’m going to use that next time.
Malcolm,
Are you really trying to make us believe that the Police have never Tased a WHITE person and injured or killed them? Are you really trying to make us believe that ALL Police Officers on SJPD are criminal vigilantes going around targeting people of color and Tasing them to death on purpose?
“That’s funny you want documentation of racism.” I didn’t ask you to provide documentation of racism Malcolm, I asked you to provide proof of your claims that the Police are purposely Tasing innocent, law abiding citizens to death JUST because they are of color. You have continually tried to side step the criminal backgrounds and the behaviors of these victims that led to them being Tased to death with a simple racism arguement. When you’ve been asked to verify your claim you do not.
You just come back with the same thing saying that because you assume Frustrated FinFan and I are white, or because we support SJPD that we just don’t get it. You’d be very wrong about your assumptions Malcolm. Very wrong. I have two bi-racial half sisters. We grew up during integration. I have a beautiful bi-racial God Child who has been called the “N” word as much as my sisters were, and denied jobs due to her color, and YES, even racially profiled unfairly. So please spare me the lecture on the “You can’t understand my point of view because you’re white.” It is just plain BS, and it is getting old. The topic once again is deaths related to Taser use, and the whether they should be banned or not.
Please provide me documentation on when I assumed you were white.
Nam Turk,
I always defer to authority? In your dreams. What I defer to is due process, reason, and reality.
Police have authority because we give it to them, because we want them to do things we don’t want to do ourselves. If your grandmother awakens to find a surly drunk on her porch do you want her to tangle with him or do you want her to call the police to handle it? If the answer is that you want the police to do it, doesn’t that constitute deferring to authority? And if that surly drunk decides to take that officer on, I expect that officer to have the tools necessary to do his job in as safe a manner as possible, with his safety being paramount. If the drunk deserves to get Tased, then that’s what should be done. If the drunk dies because his arteries were clogged with plaque and couldn’t handle the surge, I don’t care. But if the cop gets an arm broken or a tooth knocked out, I care very much. I don’t want the people doing for me and my fellow citizens to get hurt, whether their job is enforcing the law or providing current to my home.
If, in any case involving the use of force (or the authority to arrest), it can be shown that there was a significant abuse of authority, then I expect the police chief to do what he is paid to do and properly address the issue. If it is a gross abuse, then I expect the DA to get involved. The track record for this kind of accountability is, I believe, as good as can be expected in any endeavor involving humans making difficult decisions under stress.
As for Mr Salinas, my guess is that they Tased him because the situation dictated them taking him into custody, and his level of resistance/threat made the Taser the appropriate tool. Don’t forget, the cops were there because ordinary citizens had concluded that Salinas was a danger to himself or others, and those ordinary citizens did not want to handle him themselves. I guess they too deferred to authority.
As for the “traditional methods” you suggested, what you don’t seem to understand is that the Taser is the end-result of changes in policing dictated by politics, changes that killed the traditional methods such as: the carotid restraint (lost primarily because Black activists made a big noise whenever a Black man died after arrest), the sap (lost because it caused concussions), the baton (thanks to that quality citizen, Rodney King), and the dog pile (lost to diversity and economics, as it required big strong cops and lots of ‘em). All of these methods occasionally preceded the death of the suspect because there is no perfect solution.
The reality is simple: everyday the cops face combative people who need to be taken into custody. The Taser is effective, reliable, and sufficiently safe when viewed in the context of its deployment. I’m for it. Big time!
Jim Brown, Malcom and Raj, I’m not sure what race these people were but can you start counting the lives saved.
• TASER ECD Used To Subdue, Disarm Man Threatening Suicide
• Officers used the stun gun on a man after he ran into the Toys “R” Us store on Gateway Boulevard wielding a knife.
• Police used a Taser to subdue a teenager who had armed himself with knives and a baseball bat Wednesday afternoon in Whitby.
• a 41-year-old Danbury man with a TASER electronic control device last Thursday night after he allegedly attempted to grab two officers’ handguns and resisted arrest.
• When police arrived on the scene, the man was holding the storeowner hostage with a butcher knife and appeared in the front window, demanding that police shoot him in the heart. Officers were then able to distract the suspect and get close enough to subdue the man with a TASER.
• TASER DEVICE USED TO END HOSTAGE SITUATION, PREVENT SUICIDE
• TASER DEVICE APPREHENDS MAN WITH LOADED GUN—Fearing for their safety, officers deployed a TASER device, causing George to collapse. A loaded revolver was found underneath the man.
• Armed man subdued at Halliburton complex
http://www.taser.com/research/statistics/Pages/default.aspx
To date there have been over 681,000 volunteer exposure and 547,000 field uses. (Taser.com)
Only 334 related deaths (some guy named Jim Brown and AI)
Please cite documentation of where I “clearly define Police Officers as murders and racist criminals.”
John Brown –
To answer your question – “Please cite documentation of where I “clearly define Police Officers as murders and racist criminals.” ” – please go back and read your own post. You state in the first paragraph, “The tasers were the tool, the cops were the killers, and the duty being performed by the cops was arresting someone”. You finish your post by going into great detail about how Police officers are racially profiling only people of color. You go so far as to cite the Civil Grand Jury’s findings without including Chief Rob Davis’ acknowledgement that it would appear that they were racially profiling because the ratio of whites to people of color in San Jose was not taken into consideration. Throughout your entire post, you lambast us by referring to us as “pork-pals” who ignore the death of taser victims in order to keep us happily free from disturbance.
John Brown, in JJ’s post, he cites many instances where Tasers have saved people’s lives. You cannot make informed decisions on only half the information – you need all the facts on the table to ensure a balanced, well informed decision. This is something that Raj’s columns have consistently lacked. No one in San Jose, or posting here wishes to see anyone get hurt unnecessarily. But if the police do have to take action against someone, it is preferable to have them do so in a way that does not result in the death of an individual, whenever possible. What about the victims of the individual the police have to take action against – don’t they have rights?
You have undoubtedly heard the saying, “do not judge another until you have walked a mile in their moccasins”. Until you have, to use the phrase, walked a mile in a Police Officer’s shoes, don’t be so hasty or quick to judge them. You might be in need of their assistance someday.
Ok I have seen the many posts and defense of law enforcement by Fin Fan who thinks he has all the facts. Fin Fan your obviously associated or are a part of law enforcement who is saying lies just like the others. In the Rudy Cardenas case for all who do not know. He was not even on parole at the time of his killing so why did the state parole agents hunt him down? Oh yeah thats right he “fit the description of the guy they were looking for” so this is not an attack on a person of color as Malcolm has pointed out earlier right? Also according to the facts and striclty the facts the house was under surveilance and Rudy Cardenas was just drinving by like any of us would drive down any street. This lone officer was lone because even SJPD did not want to get involved in the chase due to the parolee at large issue for the guy they were really looking for.The lone officer made a decision that cost a life that cannot be taken back. What price did he pay for abusing his authority? What about the other people who were out during that lunch hour? Was their safety taken into account during the high speed chase? The Agents were not even familiar with the streets of San Jose so why is it ok for them to do high speed chases in an unfamiliar city? Their safety was not important as long as the lone officer got his man. Isn’t that the mentality with some officers,they can break the laws because they have they badge and “authority”. Why is it ok for SJPD to go speeding down the street with no lights or sirens? Or to use their lights to get around traffic? Why is it ok to pull someone over JUST BECAUSE of THEIR APPEARANCE(ie; skin tone,car, aga, etc.etc)Why is it ok for them to shoot people with Tasers whenever they feel it is ok? Much of the time the person is not even armed. We as a society are supposed to trust law enforcement but if they do not or are not willing to trust the public they work for and treat them with a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T then is it ok for them to do anything they want and however they want and see fit? Back to the Taser issue..if Tasers are saving lives then at the rate the Tasers are being shot you would assume there are that many times SJPD would have shot people with bullits right? So that means the over 100 times(guesstimate) the Tasers have been fired there would have been over a 100 shootings with real bullits? I seriously doubt it. And lastly JJ honestly I think you are some type of STALKER of this poor Steve guy who appears to be doing nothing wrong but “observing” officers. If he is making threats and antagonizing themn wouldn’t he just get arrested? Oh but wait thats right we( the public) have a right to “observe” be cause we pay officers salary so why not? Why is SJPD soo afraid of the boogey man(video camara)? what is to hide? I would assume nothing. So JJ I hope you can find something better to do with your time then going around surveiling people for nothing. You should get a pet or a girlfriend,make some friends to occupy your time. Thanks SJI your the best. Oh yeah and MR Jayadev keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more of your commentaries.
#29- Malcolm,
Go back and read your own posts. It is the best documentation I can offer you. Racism, even when dressed in inference is still racism.
#30- John Brown,
The purpose of these columns on SJI is to encourage open communication on the topic written about. I think much of what you’ve said and the judgments you are making are pretty harsh, and are based on your own personal opinions of what you are reading into what is actually being said. Just because we disagree with the author, as we often do no matter WHOM has written a column on SJI, one of many Council Members included not just Raj, does not entitle you to write the things you have in your post. Attacking one another and name calling “pork pals,” isn’t going to bring you any kind of credibility with me, or much of anyone else on here. These discussions are intended to be of an intellectual nature, which allows respectful, and passionate dialog.
No one responding to Taser deaths has said death in any form is acceptable to them. No one on here has said that they think the Police are perfect, that they walk on water, or don’t make mistakes either. But some of you are posting comments that clearly define Police Officers as murders and racist criminals. You are stereotyping them in the very manner in which you claim the Police stereotype others.
Further, you go on to quote how many people have died in Taser related deaths. It is understandable that you are angry with that. I would go so far as to say it is 344 deaths too many. But to blatantly ignore how many honest, decent Police Officers died in the line of duty at the hands of some nut is inexcusable.
You really don’t get the concept of fair play, and personal accountability here and clearly nothing any one says that isn’t in line with your perception of the facts, will even penetrate your senses because you have closed your mind and heart to what others feel about this. I have not heard one poster say that a dishonest Police Officer who is racist or kills someone without cause should be allowed to get a way with it. Not one person because if they had I personally would have taken them on myself.
You go on to post stats on race and arrests, hum. Now I’ll ask you what is the ratio of whites in San Jose compared to people of color? How many whites are in downtown on weekends at the clubs? How many of the arrests that you’ve quoted were citizens of San Jose? How many arrested were in known gangs, or carrying illegal weapons? How many were from out of town? What were these people arrested for? How many were actually convicted and sentenced for what they were arrested for? What were the ages of these persons arrested? Were any of these arrests for curfew violations? How many were Tased to death?
These are things that need to be taken into consideration before making judgments on this topic, and I for one know first hand that many of the people who hang out in downtown causing trouble come from outside San Jose. Many are underage. Many are under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Many times arrests are made because a club or business owner has called the Police because this person or persons were causing trouble on their property. People have been shot, stabbed, property has been damaged, and thugs on the street have assaulted people. So yes, I guess I’d have to agree with you that we pay the Police for the right to live a lawful, peaceful existence. Wow, now is that a crime or what?
#35- Another reality Check in Beautiful San Jose,
You raise a credible point in your post that I would like to address. Now I’m not a trained Police Officer and have zero education or qualifications as a law enforcement officer, having made that clear, I’m making the following statement as an everyday citizen, high speed chases have harmed, and killed many innocent by standers AND Police Officers involved in them. I’m not sure I get the point of them when car radios can certainly help locate someone running from the Police. The Police also have one hell of an expensive Police Helicopter to assist in finding suspects on the run.
As to the rest of your post, I can understand the need to hold our Police Officers accountable when a death takes place. I’m down with you on that. If my fiancé, brother, Uncle, or any friend of mine was killed by a Police officer I would want, no demand an explanation for it. (And if the Police think Noreen Salinas is a thorn in their side, I’d show them a whole new meaning of the word determination.)
Where I part ways with you on accountability is the methods in which you are employing. I protest and video tape animal abuse, but I do so under the guidance of the Police, and follow the law to ensure that I do not create any harm to any one or any animal. When video taping I am not engaging anyone in conversation, I pretty much stand far a way, and I make every effort to stay unnoticed. That is not what I’ve observed in actions taken by “Cop Watchers,” that I’ve seen in DT, nor is it what I saw on the videos posted in #6 . I have actually seen these “Cop Watchers,” and people video taping yelling at the Police while standing just a few feet from the Police. The Police who are usually engaged in trying subdue a suspect are having to contend with both someone resisting arrest, protecting the public, themselves, and deal with some guy who is pushing a video camera in their face. Not cool. That type of aggressive behavior is what killed Princess Diana.
Secondly, in my experience if you, not you personally just the general you, want change you cannot get it by yelling, screaming, accusing, or having a one sided view of the issue. Fairness, balance, and facts go a much longer way in discussions. Joining your local SNIs, Neighborhood Associations, going to HRC Meetings and talking with Commissioners, joining commissions, groups like The Network For A Hate Free Community, or many other advocacy groups is an important avenue to effect change.
The bottom line here is this, the methods you are using are NOT getting you the change you are seeking, so I think even those of you who want change can see, it is time to try something new. And change never happens over night. It is a very long hard fought journey best shared with everyone regardless of color~
Christian,
I’m glad everyone agrees.
“But if the police do have to take action against someone, it is preferable to have them do so in a way that does not result in the death of an individual, whenever possible.”
Evidence is being presented that tasers are not helping us all get to the goal you lay out above which I expect is shared by all. Instead of addressing the fact that tasers are falling short of that goal, police apologists are instead arguing that while they prefer that the police not kill, if the cops end up killing people, that is an acceptable price to pay. While that statement says a great deal about the values that police apologists put on human life versus their comfort and freedom from disturbance, it does not address the issue of tasers not being safe.
Basically it is a question of priorities: the unalienable right to blissful comfort and tranquility of the privileged defended by cops who are licensed to kill (but try not to most of the time) versus concern over the deaths of people who cops have tased. All Raj and many other posters are saying is that the deaths are a concern and that tasers should not be used because people are killed by cops who were not interested in shooting the person with a gun (aka killing them). A responsible cop might be less than comfortable using a “less than lethal” weapon that has resulted in so many deaths because it would destroy their integrity as a human being to have killed someone accidentally when they were just trying to subdue that person.
Instead, stating that there are deaths happening due to tasers has elicited a chorus of ad hominem attacks against the author and anyone who criticizes police behavior and the absolute denial that white supremacy is being defended by violence against mostly people of color on the part of the police. In fact, I hear victim blaming (drug use and probation as justifications for cops killing people) and denial of racial bias on the part of the police at all.
The question of the value of human life versus the ease with which police can defend the freedom from inconvenience of the privileged can not be dismissed as left wing prating. It is central to how this city functions and how we all live.
Post 35
Let’s take a look at your version of reality:
– “… why did the state parole agents hunt him down?”
Did agents (plural) hunt him down, or was what really happened the result of a single agent making an observation, forming a conclusion, and then taking action as he saw fit? Has anyone posting here ever suggested that law enforcement officers are not capable of a mistaken observation, forming an incorrect conclusion, or taking questionable action? To view the Cardenas case in its totality requires one to recognize that the agent involved was looking for a particular parolee, saw Cardenas (and most likely formed a conclusion about his appearance and reaction), and decided (an individual decision as opposed to the conspiracy suggested) to pursue him. Cardenas’s skin color was no more significant than was his appearance in general (age, build, hair color) to the agent’s decision-making process.
– “… so this is not an attack on a person of color as Malcolm has pointed out earlier right?”
That is exactly correct. It was not an attack on a person of color. California is chock-full of Mexicans, and had that state agent been hunting them he most certainly would have had a trophy wall full of ‘em prior to the incident here in town. But he didn’t, thus making your accusations are asinine.
You go on to pose a lot of stupid questions about the case, as you are apparently unwilling to accept the decision of the court in this matter. It might help you accept the court’s findings if you would make yourself familiar with our system of justice, and the many laws and rulings that account for imperfection in human conduct, the administration of authority, and reasonable doubt.
– “Why is it ok for them to shoot people with Tasers whenever they feel it is ok?”
Is that what you think? If so, then you need to do a little self-analysis and try to figure out the nature of your delusions. Every use of force is documented, with the key components of that documentation a justification of the need to use that force.
– “So that means the over 100 times(guesstimate) the Tasers have been fired there would have been over a 100 shootings with real bullits?”
If, after reading the postings here, you still believe that Tasers are intended to function only as a replacement for a firearm, then you need to work on your reading comprehension. The Taser is used to reduce the threat of injury to officers who must physically engage with persons who are violent or resisting arrest. If the threat posed to the officers or the public is deadly, then the Taser would be appropriate only in those cases where the time or distance factor is sufficient to allow the officer to then go to the firearm.
Normally you would expect that when someone with such limited contact with reality chooses to use the term in his screen name the posting would be on John’s satire column. SJI is certainly getting weird.
John Brown,
Several times I have posted something I know to be factual: that there exists a risk of death in every type of force available to law enforcement officers. I have noted the occasional deaths that followed the use of the carotid, batons, leaded saps, chemical agents, and even wrestling a person into custody. But you, and many of the other anti-police zealots posting here, refuse to acknowledge or dispute the reality of the challenge faced by police officers, that of finding some perfectly safe way of overcoming and taking into custody a person who is physically resisting arrest. You speak as if the perfect solution is out there, as if Tasers are preferred because police officers want to kill people, yet you haven’t the courage to admit that the perfect solution—or even a better one—doesn’t exist.
A lack of knowledge I could understand, but the lack of integrity evidenced here is remarkable.
#37- John Brown,
You have a right to your beliefs but the “us verses them” mentality displayed by some of you on here is what is getting in the way of the change you are trying to make happen, and it is also alienating other bloggers from commenting on any of Raj’s columns. There seems to be this mentality of trying to bully us, and shame us into thinking that by mere virtue of the color of our skin, our up bringing, or our belief in lawfulness that we are some how out of touch with “reality,” that we are giving this invisible stamp of approval to Taser deaths, and that we don’t get that racism is alive and well in the US. That is judgmental, self righteous, and untrue.
You have yet to tell us what you think a good, safe alternative weapon or method a Police Officers should use to bring down a nut on drugs, someone who is mentally ill and in the process of harming someone, or to handle a gang who is firing shots at them or innocent people. I’d like to hear your thoughts on that, as it is topic related, rather than hear you lecture us on how we are ignorant of the facts because we are born into a skin color we can’t change, even if we had Michael Jackson’s money.
You guys can continue to ignore the truth about why many don’t participate in discussions on Raj’s column, or why it is met with such disapproval, but it won’t change the facts. If this kind of mentality persists, eventually more and more people will ignore Raj’s column and the only voices that will be heard on here will be yours. But like-minded viewpoints or conversations don’t insight growth or education. It is only through challenging the ideas and experiences expressed can the real stimulation of education come.
I personally want a youth component on SJI, and asked for one when Jack asked us to give him input on the types of changes made on SJI. I want to hear what my tomorrows are thinking and feeling. It is important for us as a community to know, but if what I’ve been reading on Raj’s columns is a representation of the whole of youth, I think we’re screwed.
From Kathleen:
“Racism, even when dressed in inference is still racism.”
Exactly.
#41- If you are acussing me of racism Malcolm, have the integrity to come right out and say it, I have nothing to hide, but don’t try to hide behind my comment to you to deny that you have indeed made comments of a racist nature. I’d be happy to talk to you on off line as the topic of racisim and personal attacks don’t belong on a blog that requires us to stick to the topic at hand.
Enough of the ad hominem attacks against an author that isn’t pro-cop enough to play in your sandbox! The author was writing about the fact that tasers have been used to kill people in San Jose and 344 people in North America so far. The tasers were the tool, the cops were the killers, and the duty being performed by the cops was arresting someone, and that is not okay with Mr. Jayadev.
Most cops and several of the posters on this site are pleased with the job that the police in San Jose and around the country do and see the 344 deaths by tasering as totally acceptable: that these deaths are just one small piece of the collateral damage from police violence necessary to keep them happily free from disturbance. It wouldn’t matter if those killed were white or black or latino… you just want your freedom from disturbance protected. I mean, you pay taxes, you follow the rules, you shouldn’t have to worry about all this nonsense about rights and freedoms and justice. In that sense you happy pork-pals really have achieved color blindness and it really isn’t a racial issue for you. You just want your privilege maintained, whatever the cost because all you have to pay is your taxes, while the 344 taser casualties paid with their lives.
For those concerned with how racism (specifically white supremacy) plays out in policing, here’s an excerpt from the County Grand Jury regarding racial profiling in San Jose by SJPD:
http://www.sccsuperiorcourt.org/jury/GJreports/2006/RacialProfilingSJPD.pdf
*(EZ refers to entertainment zone aka clubs downtown)
“• In the EZ there were 1,714 arrests during the reporting period. Of the total,
336 (19.6%) were African-American and 770 (44.9%) were Hispanic.
• In San Jose overall there were 15,762 arrests. Of that total, 1,484 (9.4%)
were African-American and 8,363 (53.1%) were Hispanic.
• In San Jose there were 69 arrests under Penal Code § 148(A) (resisting arrest) during this period. Of those, 13 (18.8%) were African-American and 36
(52.2%) were Hispanic.
The statistics are disproportionate compared to the census-based African-American (2.0%) and Hispanic (31.7%) populations of San Jose”
#43- Malcolm,
Thank you for the clarification of whom you are calling racist.
” We are all guilty of it because we live in a society that is racist.”
You are 100% correct. I can only speak for myself here, but I work very hard to keep mine in check by working with programs that strive to reduce prejudice in the community, and by speaking out against unfair treatment if I see it.
” Society is more likely to condone violence against black criminal suspects as a result of its broader inability to accept African Americans as fully human.”
I don’t agree with that at all. I don’t believe all people, regardless of race, would condone such things. I for one do not, nor does anyone else I know.
“So don’t tell me I’m not “sticking to the topic” when the topic inevitably involves race because the overwhelming majority of people who were killed or harassed or beaten by the cops are people of color.”
The bottom line for me is this, you and I agree on the fundamental issue at hand. We both think Taser use needs to be examined. As callas as this next statement may seem to you Malcolm, I think anyone regardless of color, who has been Tased and died from it is something that should concern us all. My perspective on the enormous value of any human life supersedes my need to keep count of what race a victim of a Taser is because in my eyes, we are ALL equal. You and others can disagree with me on that, and I’m sure you will, but this topic goes far beyond an issue of race for me. Ignoring the reasons someone was Tased, what their behaviors were at the time they were Tased, and a multitude of others things needed to be addressed, and have been at least to some degree. So I guess on the issue of race and Taser use, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I am merely calling out racism IN ALL FORMS when I see it. We are all guilty of it because we live in a society that is racist. We’ve internalized it. Stanford University just did a study where they flashed pictures of apes on young, undergraduate white males. What this study revealed was that SUBCONSCIOUSLY, many Americans still associate apes with Black people.
What was even more pointed about this story is that the findings showed that “t society is more likely to condone violence against black criminal suspects as a result of its broader inability to accept African Americans as fully human.” It’s there. We have to acknowledge it IN ORDER to move on. So when you say “it’s not a racial issue” and many people of color say it is, then we’re at square one.
What I have also said and have stuck to is the INSTITUTIONAL nature of racism that has allowed police officers to USE racist policies and practices against people of color that have resulted in many of our people’s deaths.
So don’t tell me I’m not “sticking to the topic” when the topic inevitably involves race because the overwhelming majority of people who were killed or harrassed or beaten by the cops are people of color.
FYI~
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9395121?nclick_check=1
“The City of Houston, after a high profile tasing incident involving a NFL player, did a study on the first 1,000 taser deployments over a 2 ½-year span, and found that 95 percent of the time, recipients were unarmed.”
If they were armed, they would be dead. Less-lethal force is not an option in an armed suspect situation. You don’t bring a knife to a gunfight.
Get your facts straight.