Controversial Land to Become Terrorist Training Camps
Continuing their fire sale of San Jose properties, Divco West, the real estate investment and asset management company that made millions in San Jose on a scorched earth and people policy, sold their large and controversial land holdings in Coyote Valley to a branch of the Islamic Liberation Front (ILF) for an undisclosed sum.
“It was a no-brainer,” said Stuart Schiff, principal at Divco West. “They offered four times as much as anyone else would pay.”
Worried that these terrorist training camps will tie up critical police and firefighter manpower, city officials have tried unsuccessfully to block the sale of the property through the legal system.
“Although we respect property rights and the right of owners to do what they want with their property,” said city attorney Rick Doyle, “we’re just a little afraid that these terrorist cells won’t be conducive to future corporate or residential development.”
A spokesman for the ILF said that they would forgo any terrorist-type activity or training if the city grants a development permit for a 600,000 square foot shopping center and allows them to name it “Little Baghdad.”
A vote will be taken by the city council next week.
The San Jose City Council does an excellent job at creating controversies, problems and wasting money. The SJCC should direct their energies inward, thereby destroying their own lives and allowing the citizens to live happily ever after. At least that is what my sigh-kai-a-tryst suggested.
I happened to see a bit of the Rules Committee meeting on Feb 13th re: the Little Saigon issue and the possibility of a Brown Act violation. What I thought I heard/saw didn’t seem to jive with what the Merc reported the next day, so I checked the transcript of the meeting:
In the 2/14/08 issue of the Mercury News, Joshua Molina reported the following:
“…And City Attorney Rick Doyle on Wednesday told the Committee it was unclear whether a violation had occurred. But, he added, the perception of a Brown Act violation ‘Is there, and we need to make sure it is cleared up…’”
(Mercury News p2B, 2/14/08)
But, the city’s transcript reads differently:
DOYLE: And while we don’t find a Brown Act violation, because of the context and how-and of basically a casual remark, I think we agree with the concerns set forth…
(online city transcript- feb 13th meeting, page 3)
——————-
by Pete Campbell
Reed is 0-3 on following Brown Act in 2008 – Little Saigon, Budget Director and VTA Board
What happened to ethics, sunshine and openness?
I note that Pete Campbell who works with me to put Reed’s clothes out in the morning and boil his eggs is out there defending Reed again.
It is so nice when we read about Reedites like Mousey Kathleen “discovering” the movie Rebecca and Pete Campbell writing how innocent Chuck is.
Let’s name it the Baghdad Terrorist District, then everyone will go on a hunger strike, and die. No more terrorists.
Oooh, but what if they hijack a plane full of civilian women and children and throw leaflets out? Then the Vietnamese in Orange County will dub them heroes for the cause in the name of Almighty Jesus.
#5- Why James Rowen, I see you’ve finally seen the light and joined a profession you can be proud of! Congratulations.
Little Mariachi Festival,
That is what the jucied up croud at the Mayor’s meeting last Monday night At the Mexican Heritage Plaza & Gardens,has proposed.
The latest in a never ending search for what works while every relative and friend is on the dole out there.
Many meeting attendees were observed j walking across the street to that gin joint to listen to mariachis and have shots prior to the meeting. It is rumored that Johnathon Clark and OLD MHC board members have threatened to go on a hunger strike. until they get their fair share of what the new Exec. Director has managed to get from the state and those foundations they have not already contacted to criple the new Exec. Director. and board.
D.O.A.
Santa Clara County filed suit today against the City of San Jose in regard to San Jose allowing terrorist training camps in Coyote Valley.
As part of Santa Clara County’s plan to develop county assets, such as the Reid-Hillview airport, in a manner that generates income for the county’s Enterprise Fund, the county had planned to add terrorist training camps at Reid-Hillview. Since the county had already announced its plan for terrorist camps at Reid-Hillview, the suit is considered a retaliation suit against San Jose for suing Santa Clara county over the county’s planned concert hall at the Fairgrounds.
“We feel that having terrorist training camps alongside the flight schools at Reid-Hillview is the perfect synergy for generating income for the county.” said county supervisor Don Gage.
“The terrorists are hard-working, and will spend their money in San Jose so this is a win-win for both the city and the county.” added Ken Yeager.
“Additionally, the terrorists, along with their airplanes, will inspire children, and, praise Allah, the children of East San Jose certainly can use some inspiration.” Liz Kniss chimed in.
This is true: Richard Hobbs the present Director of the Office of Human Relations, just declared his candidacy for District 2, Blanca’s seat. He will be running against George Shirakawa Jr. Now that will be a very interesting race, given that Hobbs has always been a strong advocate for illegal immigrants rights. I wonder how he’ll fare with the legal immigrants who fought hard to become citizens of the U.S. and citizens who oppose illegal immigrant issues. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Dear San Jose:
Saturday’s edition of the MERC supports my thesis:
“Doyle later said it appeared there was no violation, but he recommended redoing the vote to avoid the appearance of secret dealing.”
(page 3B) 3/1/08 Mercury News
Pete Campbell
Remember, the terrorist will follow us home.
You don’t support build-out of Coyote Valley and the developer plan to keep us safe, terrorists could attack. Airports, busses, farmers markets; even Costco on Saturday morning may be prime targets.
Developers plead for your support to keep the country safe.
#10: Didn’t you read in the Murky News about a month ago that reported a survey that determined only 19% of LEGAL Mexican immigrants ever even SEEK citizenship?
So, what does that tell us? One thing it tells us is that the Bush nonsense about creating “a path to citizenship” is meaningless pablum. Mexicans (and others)come here because there are no prospects in Mexico to make a decent living, so that working hard here for minimum wage is better than staying in Mexico to starve.
Sorry, Kathleen, but relatively few Mexicans have “fought hard to become citizens of the U.S.”. They don’t consider themselves “American” and for the most part (81%) they don’t want to become American citizens. They just want the opportunity to work here so they can send money back home to the Senora and los ninos, and eventually move back to THEIR COUNTRY.
But while they are here, they do want the myriad government social services we provide, delivered En Espanol, and to be able to oprima para espanol at commercial sites.
So, if only 19% of the LEGAL immigrants ever become citizens of the USA, what do you think is the percentage of ILLEGAL immigrants who have a desire to become American citizens?
So, let’s abandon the charade that many folks come here to become Americans. Let’s understand that all they want is the opportunity to work, and let’s give it to them, legal or illegal. After all, despite what some folks say, those jobs are not taken away from Americans willing to fill those jobs. That notion is as nonsensical as the notion that all immigrants want to become American citizens.
Without (mostly Mexican) immigrants, every restaurant in California would close in a month or less, lawns wouldn’t get mowed,nannys would be virtually non-existent, and crops wouldn’t get sown or reaped.
Let’s let everyone who comes here to work go to work, ON THE BOOKS, and pay taxes to help support the government services they utilize. Show up at the border station, get a work permit and a valid SS#, and present it to prospective employers. No valid work permit and no valid SS#, no work. If they have a car, they MUST be licensed and carry insurance. Otherwise, it’s a bicycle or public transit or afoot. If a business owner hires a person without a valid work permit & a valid SS#, they get fined—light the first time, heavy the second time, and three strikes, you’re out; i.e., the government padlocks your business, the same as they do if you’re caught not paying payroll taxes.
And finally, if you come here and don’t work, you are inelgible for any government services, especially welfare and Medi-Cal. We all must work to become eligible for unemployment benefits and Social Security, so why not all the panoply of other “social services”?
#12- JMO- My apologies for not being clear. Let me give a clarification, I wasn’t speaking about just the Hispanic community, when referring to legal immigrants being at odds with Richard Hobb’s view of amnesty of illegal immigrants from Mexico. Many legal Hispanic immigrants oppose amnesty for illegal Hispanic immigrants too. I was mainly referring to the Indian, Vietnamese, Iranian, and other legal immigrants, who have been very vocal about their anger with illegal immigrants demanding rights and amnesty here in the US, especially when they had to follow a long legal process, and pay out a lot of money to become citizens.
As to saying our restaurants, and other jobs would be left unfilled if illegals weren’t here in the US, I strongly disagree with that. I’m sick of people using that argument when it comes to illegals. I scrubbed many a toilet, served many a customer in fast foods, and worked my ass off in distasteful jobs to pay my bills, and work my way through college, so I could get an education. I didn’t want to have to grow old serving someone food in a restaurant, or scrub toilets. To assert that no one but illegals will do that kind of work is, in my opinion, untrue and is giving these illegals an excuse for being here without legal citizenship. I also believe that as a society, we don’t appreciate people who would rather do menial jobs, nor do we have a right to judge them as lazy or uneducated because they actually enjoy working in a restaurant, or on cars, or being a housekeeper.
I personally am angry that so many people in the US and who are running for political office are too dam scared to fight against these millions of illegals, and who are allowing them all kinds of benefits, working class folks don’t get. If we made the citizenship process easier, and more attainable, I would be in support of that, but when it comes to a free pass, I say no way~
Kathleen #13: Trust me, every restaurant in California would close without Mexican workers. I eat at least 300 meals/year in restaurants. Everything from fast food to Manresa. Virtually every kitchen is staffed by Latinos, mostly Mexican; the diswashers are virtually all Latino, and many bussers, as well.
And it’s also a fact that very few non-Latinos are employed picking in the fields.
I have worked menial jobs in my day; but at least in California, most native-born Americans shun that work.
#14- I am not saying people won’t take a better paying job if they can. The only reason, in my opinion and experience, why so many Latino people work in restaurants is because they can get hired, and they come here lacking other skills. Many companies don’t hire non-English speaking employees. I have food allergies and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been served by someone who either can’t communicate with me, or gives me something I’m allergies to because they don’t understand me. I call the manager over, chew him/her out, and never go back there. I taught ESL to pay my way through college. I can’t tell you how many times my students came in upset because their boss stuck them in a drive up window, or in a position they couldn’t effectively communicate. These were hard working students just trying to get an education and pay their rent. They were as unhappy about this as I am when it happens to me, so I make it a policy to tell managers how wrong they are to put people in positions that require effective communication with the public, when they lack the necessary skills to speak English.
I have worked with many youth that are/were court ordered to find employment to pay restitution to their victims. They can’t even get a job at a restaurant or other low paid positions because Latinos already have them. They can’t even get a job in a car wash.
By allowing illegals, and others hiding the law to work in these jobs, at such a low rate of pay, we are driving the wage down. We are also allowing some nasty employers a way to take advantage of and abuse these desperate people. We need to make work visas and other job programs easier for people needing to feed their families to get, but we need to make sure our own US born citizens have jobs first.
I can’t remember where I read this but even farmers are having difficuilty-finding people to work in the fields because less Latinos are willing to do that kind of grunt work anymore. They are getting college educations free, via the government, and through school programs. My niece had to work to pay her way through college. No free bees for her. I’m very proud of her, she is now working in a sports medicine clinic.
I have several friends who are currently flying all over the world to train foreigners how to do their jobs because so much work is being outsourced. And our government gives these companies tax breaks for out sourcing. It is a crying shame, and is a big reason why our economy is so bad. We have so many recalls because the standards we hold over here, are higher than many overseas. Bottom line for me is, we need to start caring for our citizens first, and others second. And we need to do something about making a sense able, affordable program that allows people to come here legally.
I agree with Johnmicheal. 99% of staff in restaurant kitchens and 50% in the front of house are latino.
If I lost all of my illegal and legal latinos I’d be out of business.
If I lost all of my ilegal workers, l’d probably be very shorted staffed and at a huge disadvantage in the marketplace. There are not enough persons “legal” that are looking for restaurant work.
Person in the business
#16- Restaurant Person, if you really are a business owner, you are in violation of the law, but I’m pretty sure you already know that and simply don’t care. I guess you think you are above the same laws that govern the rest of us. Too bad you are allowed to stay in business.
Do you pay a fair wage and health insurance for these workers? Do they receive paid sick days, and paid vacation? How exactly are you pulling off evading paying taxes to the government, and how many of your employees are using fake Social Security numbers? Or don’t these things matter to you? Identity theft is among the top 5 crimes in America today. Ever been a victim of identity theft? Well if you have then you know it is no day at the beach.
And by the way, I don’t dispute JMO’s statement that these jobs are being held by primarily Hispanics, I’m simply saying illegal workers, and those who don’t speak English in jobs that require communication shouldn’t be working in the US. And while I cannot speak for JMO, I don’t think he would agree with lawlessness, identity theft, or tax evasion either. (Please feel free to correct me on this JMO.)
#17
…or tax evasion either.
Stop disparaging Republicans.
#18- Ann Rynd, where in my post do you see me disparaging Republicans? My God, it never ceases to amaze me how people can twist a simple statement into a comment like you just did. I have voted both Republican and Democratic, depending on their experience, or beliefs.
Nor does it never cease to amaze me that JMO or others can take a simple post about someone running for office into a long dissertation on the evils of immigrants sending money home to feed their families, then turn around and defend them by saying, all restaurants would close their doors if illegals weren’t here. Just mind-boggling!
Is there a law about county employees blogging when they are being paid on county on funds??
Kathleen, restaurant workers, whether illegal or not, never receive health care, paid sick days, or paid vacations.
Kathleen #15 wrote:“so I make it a policy to tell managers how wrong they are to put people in positions that require effective communication with the public, when they lack the necessary skills to speak English.” Have you tried to understand the TSA workers @ SJC lately? Many speak completely incomprehensible English.
Kathleen #18—where did I say it was evil for people to send money home to their families?
#20—propose it to Simitian.
#20- Rowen, I do not hold a paid position at the City or County. Nor do I blog from a City or County computer. You have continually lied about that and other things. You are constantly lying about people, and harassing people on blogs. You are a Cyber Bully.
I am telling you now to stop lying about me, or you can accept whatever consequences come your way for making libelous and slanderous remarks about me publicly on blogs, and your website. I’m done having this conversation with you Rowen.
Jack, if SJI is going to allow James Rowen a public forum in which to harass, personally attack, and lie about its audience, and writers, then I will no longer visit this blog. His First Amendment Rights do not allow him to publicly slander others because he has some hateful obsession with them.
23 – I’m no lawyer, I just play one on TV, but I don’t think you have any kind of case. First, nobody knew who (or what) he was talking about—they certainly didn’t think he was talking about you; Second – why do you engage him at all. Most of us have ignored what he has written since day one—you should try it; Third – Even if he was talking about you (or me or anyone specific) good luck doing anything about it.
As for me, gotta go—I’m late for court.
#24- Where did you get your law degree Mr. Masion? Rowen has posted these lies, with my name attached everywhere. My attorney has seen them, and disagrees with your assessment.
#23, #25
Please point out in post #20 where your name is used, or anyone’s name is used.
25 – Sorry. I didn’t see your name in #20. Oh, right, it wasn’t there.
BTW – There’s no “i” in Mason.
Regards to your attorney.
#26 and #27- Unless you are James Rowen, and I don’t doudt one of you are, this is none of your business. This between Rowen and I.
30 –
Claiming “he started it” doesn’t get you off the hook for playing along. You have equal blame for continuing to take the bait by responding to his games. Nobody here really cares who you work for or if you even work at all? I am curious though, why would you feel legal action neccessary against someone who suggested that you were an employee of the city or county? Are city and county employees such horrible people that you feel slighted to be associated with them?
Maybe I am reading into your post too much….(sort of like you did reading into #18’s post as a slight on you when she was just making a stab at political humor) Was there something else stated by Rowen in his post that rises above the usual absurdity and is worthy of your ire? Doesn’t matter I guess. This is all ridiculous and a waste of time. I doubt you will heed my suggestion, but I’ll offer it anyway. Ignore the guy and chill out. We will all be better off if you do.
29- You are telling the wrong person. I’m not the one on here bashing everyone.
#31. This is just an example of more paranoia by someone who equates illegal immigrants with lawlessness, identity theft and tax evasion. While illegal immigrants may demonstrate some level of lawlessness, the other two claims are highly questionable. Using a made up social security number that belongs to someone else is not exactly identity theft. They are not trying to break into your bank account or steal your credit card number or even steal your social security benefits. They simply used a number that happened to be yours. There is no intention to “steal” anything from you and thus no identity theft. The simple response when social security sends you a letter is to respond I did not work for so and so’s landscape company last year in Phoenix or X restaurant in Spokane.
Also, tax evasion? For the most part illegal immigrants pay into social security and have taxes taken out of their pay. But, they do not get social security benefits and most of them do not file for tax refunds. They are actually contributing to the system and receiving no benefits.
Illegal alien bashing is great sport for a lot of people but come on, at least make arguments that are supportable and mean something.
#31- What I find offensive is to be continously and fasly accused, publicly, of working at a government agency and breaking the law by blogging on tax payers time, and for you to keep lecturing me on what YOU think I should be doing about this. I don’t see you lecturing Rowen, or anyone else who has told Rowen to screw off for lying about or harrassing them.
If you really do find this ” ridiculous and a waste of time,” then go back to San Jose Revealed, or take your own advice and drop it.
#32- Michael Schwerin, are you quite serious?
“Illegal alien bashing is great sport for a lot of people but come on, at least make arguments that are supportable and mean something.” Talk about being paranoid!
Have you ever picked up a credible magazine, or newspaper on this topic? Have you ever worked with crime victims or criminals? Well, I have. I’d love to know where you get your facts from.
#33
What I find offensive is to be continously and fasly accused, publicly, of working at a government agency and breaking the law by blogging on tax payers time
If this is true then you are correct.
Please provide us with the post where this accusation occured. It certainly was not post #20 (above), so it must be on some old thread.
# 33:
I have never been to San Jose Revealed, but then again, why would I bother going anywhere else when you keep taking the time to respond here? Rowen may be a jerk, but I can see now why he gets so much pleasure giving you a hard time…
#34 Ms. Flynn:
I am quite serious. I am an immigration attorney helping people legally enter the US on a daily basis. You are spouting unsubstantiated garbage and need to be taken to task. Considering your incredible liberal leanings on most issues, you are clearly leaning far to the right on the issue of immigration and spout the utter nonsense of the enforcement only immigrant crusaders. Since you spouted no facts in your initial post (#17), I don’t see what facts I need to pull out to refute your baseless statements. Point me to the credible magazine article or newspaper articles you are referring to. I would highlight the word credible if I knew how. I don’t see one fact or one citation in your post. Anyone can state an opinion on any subject as is clearly demonstrated on this site every day. You have stated an opinion that so far is unsupported.
#30, #29, #27 –
Jim Rowen, knock it off. I’ve had just about enough of your attacks on Kathleen. You are going too far. Keep in mind these blogs can be subpeona’d to find out what other names you are posting under. Character assassination is not cool. This is not a political campaign that you are digging up dirt for.
Jack, why do you allow these kinds of personal attacks? Jim Rowen has been attacking Kathleen’s character on and off this blog, on San Jose Revealed, the San Jose Mercury Blogs (until the recent format change), and on his little, virtually unread blog. I understand you cannot control San Jose Revealed, Jim’s blog, or the Merc Blogs, but you do have a say over San Jose Inside. Is SJI going to continue to allow these kinds of personal attacks? Do you want posters to stick to issues, and subjects? I have to tell you, these kinds of attacks are a big turn-off, and make me not even want to read SJI. Now, Rowen is going after Pete Campbell. Who next? This has got to stop, and you can make sure this kind of thing stops on SJI.
#37 –
You cited Kathleen’s post #17, where she responds to ‘Restaurant Person’ #16 for saying, “If I lost all of my illegal and legal latinos I’d be out of business. “
Are you saying it is legal to hire illegal immigrants?
38 – You’re kidding, right? First, I’m NOT Rowen. I don’t even know him. Secondly, what attacks did I make? It would seem you’ve cited the wrong post #s (since #30 that you cite is Kathleen).
Get your numbers correct and don’t accuse me of something I haven’t done, and don’t insult me by calling me Rowen. My epistles are much more erudite than his.
You must subscribe to the saying, “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.”
Relax. Breathe deep. Ommmmm.
#40 – Perry Mason –
You say you are not Jim Rowan – I will take you at your word. Yes, I am a bit upset at his actions – you would be too if he were going after someone you cared about. I am sorry I insulted you.
And yes, I cited the wrong post numbers – thank you for the correction.
I know Rowan has been going on this blog under other names, and stirring up trouble, making the same accusations against Kathleen, then questioning it to death when she defends herself. It is character assassination, and it is garbage. You can only ignore it for so long.
Kathleen Flynn #17,
I am indeed a restaurant. And yes in my 20 years I have employeed a large number of employees and with very fair wages (my employees stay with me for years because they do really well financially).
Every person working for me has to produce a valid identification, green card and or Social security card. It is not required by law for me to figure out if a person has a fake green card or identificaiton. Everyone working has taxes and other required fees taken out.
I have always chosen not to question anyone for having a fake identity to work; becuase all of the poeple have been good law abiding people looking to feed their families.
I’m really sorry you are so tied up in your personal predujuces towards persons of color. Perhaps if you were an imigrant or child of imigrants you’d see that 99.9% of those coming to this country just want a better future for thier families.
Besides, if not for imigrant labor who would work in kitchens, hotels, gardening jobs? And why would you expect US citizens to do low paying thankless jobs?
28 – Great. Then please leave the rest of us out of it and settle it off this blog.
41 – Thanks for the apology. I don’t know why you don’t just ignore him, though. He knows he’s pushing your buttons and you let him—just like the school bully on the playground. Ignore him and he has to look for another target. If we all ignore him—he goes away. Just like he did for a long time on this site.
Now he’s back because he has a new audience of folks who take his bait and once again he’s a happy camper.
Let him spew, ignore him. When he no longer gets the attention he needs he’ll move on.
Just my 2 cents.
#42- “I’m really sorry you are so tied up in your personal prejudices towards persons of color. Perhaps if you were an immigrant or child of immigrants you’d see that 99.9% of those coming to this country just want a better future for their families.”
Your statement is completely untrue, and smacks of turning the tables on someone who has pointed out an issue you need to defend by deflecting your own shortcomings. If you go back and read my posts I make it completely clear that I support a system of both work programs, and an easier and more accessible way for people to become legal in this country.
And yes, my mother and two sisters came to the US from Germany, and did not speak a word of English. My two sisters are half black, and we grew up during integration, so don’t even try and say I have issues with people of color because in my lifetime, whites have behaved worse than any other race I’ve seen in my 52 years on this planet! My Mother and sisters applied for citizenship, learned the language, and became American citizens. I have many legal immigrant friends and coworkers who are just as firm on the unfairness of illegals coming here without following the same laws, and procedures they did. I don’t think lawlessness is acceptable, regardless of their reasons. I do not apologize for that stand, and I think business owners like you, who say:
” If I lost all of my illegal and legal Latinos I’d be out of business. If I lost all of my illegal workers, I’d probably be very shorted staffed and at a huge disadvantage in the marketplace. There are not enough persons “legal” that are looking for restaurant work, ”
Need to think long and hard about trying to defend breaking the law by making excuses. Go out and change the law if you don’t agree with it. This is America!
You can call me a racist, but I’m real clear I am not, but you can’t stand there and convince me that breaking the law is okay. I just don’t buy it.
Kathleen,
Any lawyer who defends people breaking the law is a lawyer who is only interested in lining his pockets. Think about it, where would they be if they did not have a continuous source of income?
I am in my 40’s, and I work in the security field. I work with people who feel a sense of entitlement, and with attitudes like Mr. Restaurant here, that think they are above the law. Like Mr. Restaurant, they have a hundred reasons why they think they don’t have to follow the same rules the rest of us do. I’ll give you an example, one of my biggest pet peeves is people who park on the red curb in front of the building, or places that are marked with no parking signs. They love to debate the safety procedures we have in place to justify parking there. All I hear from them is “I was only there a minute…” or “there was nowhere to park, and I’m late for a meeting” more times in one day than I care to think about. When I explain to them that they are not only creating a problem for the Fire Department, should there be a fire, or I point out to them that their car is blocking the thoroughfare, they always turn on me and start attacking me personally. I’ve seen that happen to you many times on the threads here. Just remember, that no matter what you say to them, they are still going to make it your fault. So, keep that in mind, and take it as a compliment when bloggers go from intelligent, fruitful, respectful exchanges of ideas to personal attacks. They can’t win fair, so they have to fight dirty.
Mr. Restaurant,
I married a Vietnamese woman. I am the son of two holocaust survivors. I wanted to let you know that because I am pretty sure you are going to use the race card to come back at me when I tell you that you are not above the law, and what you are doing by hiring illegal immigrants is not only driving down the wage, it is also encouraging more illegals to jump the fence, or sneak across our borders. Now I get that in your world you think what you are doing is ok because you have justified your actions by saying, my business helps feed, clothe, and house my own family, and the families of these illegals. Now that is a pretty good argument. I can’t deny that. But as an employer and a business owner, you can apply for work permits on behalf of your employees, or at the very least you can help your employees through the process of legal citizenship. If you actually were to do that, you would be teaching them, and their children, how to be good, legal, law-abiding citizens instead of teaching them that breaking the law is ok in certain circumstances.
Michael Schwerin,
There is no such thing as a victimless crime. You also sound like a pretty decent guy with the exception of some of the things you said to Kathleen. (I doubt that you would get a way with talking to your wife like that, and live to tell about it. Women express themselves a lot differently then we men do. You might want to keep that in mind when you are talking to women on this blog because I have seen a lot of sexism, and strong-arming of women who are trying to keep up with the testosterone-driven males on here. This isn’t a locker room, or a court room.)
I have worked with attorneys like you who care about their clients, but that still doesn’t justify breaking the law and making excuses for them. I think it would be productive if you could tell Mr. Restaurant how to go about helping his illegal employees, and himself, in becoming legal. Would you be willing to list some programs, and low cost legal services to help him down the right path?
Kathleen #45,
You state “I have worked in the Victim Offender Program for 5 years……I work for victim’s rights”.
You also have stated in numerous prior posts that Ly Tong is a hero and courageous for going on a hunger strike over the Little Saigon issue.
Ly Tong is a criminal who hijacked a commercial plane with innocent women and children who were VICTIMS of Mr. Tong’s criminal actions. That is not speculation, that is fact.
What did you do to help the victim’s of Mr. Tong’s criminal actions who were terrorized and traumitized for a lifetime by Mr. Tong, or do the ends justify the means?
Just curious how you are such an advocate for victims, yet think Mr. Tong is a hero. Just curious.
This is not a slam against you and not meant to be offensive, nor am I passing judgement on you.
#37- Michael Schwerin,
I have posted some links on the topic below. You can Google some governments stats and they will bare me out. You are correct in stating that our definition of credible may differ. (You can Google more information on illegal immigrants, identity theft, as well as illegal immigrants and tax evasion.) Here are a few varied articles on the topic:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/74587/illegal_immigration_the_hidden_issue.html
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2006/03/hidden_cost_of_.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/01/how_will_illegal_immigration_e.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE3DA133FF935A25755C0A965958260&scp=2&sq=Illegal+Immigrants+and+tax+evasion&st=nyt
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/29/nyregion/29fraud.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Illegal+Immigrants+and+tax+evasion&st=nyt&oref=slogin
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEED61F30F930A25755C0A965958260&scp=9&sq=Illegal+Immigrants+and+tax+evasion&st=nyt
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DC1138F934A3575AC0A9659C8B63&scp=10&sq=Illegal+Immigrants+and+tax+evasion&st=nyt
I am a mediator and an arbitrator. I have been for 25 years now. I have worked with caring, honest attorneys who strive to help clients to become legal citizens, and many who are crooks.
I have worked in the Victim Offender Program for 5 years. I have seen the harm illegal immigrants cause innocent victims by stealing their Social Security Numbers. They take out large loans, and credit cards in the name of the person they are posing as. They run up bills totaling thousands.
Try proving you didn’t sign a card, or loan forms you knew nothing about. These kinds of crimes leave people devastated for years. Bad credit leaves them unable to buy a car, rent an apartment, buy a home etc.
I am not right winged, liberal, racist, or spouting bull shit based on some kind of ignorant prejudice. I am speaking from my own personal professional, and personal life experience.
I have recovered wages from rich idiot employers who rip off frightened illegal immigrants. I have worked with rich retail office space owners who have slipped illegal contracts over on my clients who didn’t understand what he/she was signing because he/she can’t speak English. I’ve carried out court ordered restitutions because some little thief broke into someone’s home, and ripped them off, just so they could have money to buy dope! Many of these kids are illegal immigrants who are never deported. I could go on and on but I think you get the point.
When people trot into this country illegally, and don’t learn the language, steal Social Security Numbers, they are doing several things:
They are breaking the law.
They are either going to have to lie, steal, or be abused by some uncaring scum bag who is only interested in exploiting them.
By driving a car they don’t have Insurance for because they can’t get a license, and crashing into you, they are driving up our Insurance rates.
They are teaching their children lawlessness.
They are setting them up for victimization by every opportunist that can make a buck off them.
I work hard in this community, and have for the last 20 years. I work for victim’s rights, for racial equality so, I’m not going to stand still while you judge me unfairly, twist what I’ve said, and “take me to task.” This isn’t a deposition either it is a conversational blog.
If I am such a racist, why is every anti-Little Saigon person on here slamming me, just because I am speaking up for the Vietnamese community, and showing honest compassion for a man who might die? Oh, is it possibly because he isn’t white, African American, or an American born citizen? Or is it because I’m female, and I don’t convey my thoughts and feelings like a man does? You guys ever notice how few women write on here? Hum…I wonder why that is?
There is a huge difference between a personal opinion, an argument, and a debate. In my opinion, a comment on something doesn’t have to be based on fact, hence the term, opinion. And given that you are an attorney try to remember you are not in a courtroom where you get to judge people, without allowing them the privilege of being seen innocent until proven guilty. You are on a blog that is designed to exchange thoughts and ideas. Discovery isn’t required here~
#46-Thank you for your kind words, and for your support. Your mother raised a good man!
#47- Steve,
Thank you for clarifying your efforts in asking me these questions. I think I see the disconnect here, so let me try to address you one question at a time.
“You also have stated in numerous prior posts that Ly Tong is a hero and courageous for going on a hunger strike over the Little Saigon issue.”
That statement is your perception of what I said and meant, and in fairness to you, I can see how you came to that understanding. Here is what I meant: Ly Tong is a hero to the Vietnamese community. Many leaders both past and present in the US also consider Ly Tong a hero. Mayor Reed himself, when he was just a Councilmember, worked with many groups in an effort to free Ly Tong from a Vietnamese prison. So yes, many, not just the Vietnamese people, see Mr. Ly Tong as a hero.
Now, if you are asking me if I think he is a hero, my honest answer is, I’m torn by my own sense of ethics and morals. As in the example I gave you about the animal rights group PETA, I do not agree with, nor would I ever do what they do to prove a point. As I also said in above posts, would I hijack a plane, with or without people on it, or would I go on a hunger strike over the failings of the Mayor and Council, NO I would not.
Now, do I think Ly Tong is courageous for doing what he believes is right, and do I think that it is important to stand by ones personal convictions, you bet I do. So in some small way, I guess I see him as a hero for doing just that, standing up for his beliefs. But remember too that, compassion and understanding of his plight is not necessarily a sign of agreement. It is just that, compassion, and understanding.
“Ly Tong is a criminal who hijacked a commercial plane with innocent women and children who were VICTIMS of Mr. Tong’s criminal actions. That is not speculation, that is fact.”
You are absolutely correct! He was imprisoned for his actions, and paid the price for his crime.
“What did you do to help the victim’s of Mr. Tong’s criminal actions who were terrorized and traumatized for a lifetime by Mr. Tong, or do the ends justify the means?”
Well since I wasn’t born yet, I did nothing!
“Just curious how you are such an advocate for victims, yet think Mr. Tong is a hero.”
Steve, very few of the criminals or offenders I work with are rotten to the core, horrible people. It is not as simple as you are making it. Many offenders I work with are also victims. Take for example a young man I had to work with who punched a teacher in the face for calling him a dirty rotten “N”. Did he break the law, yep, did he go to jail, yep, should he have, yep, did he pay for the teachers doctor’s bills, and lost wages, yep! Was the teacher found guilty of a crime…sort of. Hate Speech is against the law now, but it wasn’t then. Did the judge find the teacher partially responsible for getting himself clocked, thank God YES! The judgment was divided equally.
I guess what I want to say again Steve is, jumping to a conclusion about the way people say, mean, or convey things is not very smart. I’m guilty of that myself. Asking for clarification on a meaning, the hypocrite said, might help in future dialogs. And not to pull the gender card, but women really don’t speak to one another the way men do. Speaking from the heart doesn’t mean we’re being dramatic, or exaggerating, or painting with broad-brush strokes. It means we communicate differently, that’s all. My God, I hear you men telling one another you’re fat, ugly, and bald, etc. My fiancé has a friend who is a cop who has a bit of a weight problem, they nicknamed him Piggy! He answers to it and likes it! Go figure, if I called an over weight woman that, I’d be blind because she’d have clawed my eyes out and laughed while she was doing it, because her fellow female friends would hold me down! Women would never ever say things like that to one another! That’s the beauty of life difference, acceptance, and tolerance.
Kathleen #45:
“In my opinion, a comment on something doesn’t have to be based on fact, hence the term, opinion.”
You are of course entitled to believe whatever you want, but if those opinions are not based in some way on facts, may I ask where your opinions are derived from?
Thank you in advance for clarifying.
#48
“What did you do to help the victim’s of Mr. Tong’s criminal actions who were terrorized and traumatized for a lifetime by Mr. Tong, or do the ends justify the means?”
Well since I wasn’t born yet, I did nothing!
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I have previously read where you state you are 51 years old.
Ly Tong hijacked the plane in 1992, which was 16 years ago. If you are 51 then according to my calculator you were 35 at the time (51 – 16 = 35).
So, are you saying that you accidentally reversed your age to 51 when you meant to type 15?
“Tong hijacked a Vietnam Airlines jet in September 1992 from Thailand and dropped 50,000 anti-government leaflets over Ho Chi Minh City.”
http://asianweek.com/2001_06_01/news10_vietam_pilot_pleads.html
#49- “You are of course entitled to believe whatever you want, but if those opinions are not based in some way on facts, may I ask where your opinions are derived from? “
” I am speaking from my own personal professional, and personal life experience, and on facts as I understand them as well.”
Kathleen #48—Blue Fox #50 beat me to the punch re your birthdate in relationship to Ly Tong’s criminal hijacking of a planeload of civilians.
So, your amended answer to Steve’s question would be what?
#53—he admitted to having taken liquid nutrition for the first two weeks of his fast, Kathleen. Yeah, technically it’s drinking, not eating. He must have lawyered up to make that misleading statement.
What was the “ridiculous question” Kathleen?
The fact that you consider people who opine that hijacking an airplane full of civilians not to be heroes are playing games is rather troubling, Kathleen. If Ly Tong wanted to leaflet Vietnam, he could have done so soloing in a plane instead of hijacking 167 civilians and placing them in danger to make his “point”. That was a completely irresponsible act and should not be considered heroic. That plane could have been shot down by Vietnamese military. The fact that it was not, and the fact that he served 6 years of a 20 year sentence does not detract from the fact that the man placed 167 people in mortal danger.
I do not consider decrying the placing of innocent lives in mortal danger a game, Kathleen. Apparently you do.
#54- You are certainly entitled to your strong opinions on this and any other issue, and we can certainly agree to disagree on everything including whether you perceive the resources I gave you as credible, and your statement that you weren’t personally attacking me with comments like” You are spouting unsubstantiated garbage and need to be taken to task.”
As to your statement, “Your original posting is not supported by any credible information except for the fact that some illegal aliens have used social security numbers belonging to real people and it has caused a few problems.” Since you have done such a valiant job of minimizing the effects of said crimes on victims, I’ll be sure to tell the next victim I work with who is going through this type injustice just how trivial and unimportant their victimization really is.
#55- You are twisting what I said JMO. What I said was ridiculous was asking me what I did to help the victims of Ly Tong. Besides the jurisdictional issue, I do not nor did I live in the country Mr. Tong did at the time of his hijacking, it is not incubate of me to fly overseas to help victims of a crime I knew nothing about until a month ago, nor is it now. That is what the judicial system is for, but if I had been asked to help, I certainly would have.
The question Steve asked, was a question he already knew the answer to, but as an attorney, I’m pretty sure you already knew that, so my question to you was, why are you taking part in such games given that I thought better of you?
My understanding of the meaning of a hunger strike is that you do not eat food of any kind, including liquid supplements that contain nutritional value. It does not prohibit the ingestion of water. But that is a mute point now, given that he isn’t even drinking water and hasn’t for a week now.
#55 – JMO:
The fact that you consider people who opine that hijacking an airplane full of civilians not to be heroes are playing games is rather troubling, Kathleen.
Two comments:
1) Kathleen was not commenting on Ly Tong’s actions back then. In fact, I remember her posting that she did not support his actions in that incident, and supportive that he served time for committing that act. What she did was to question the purpose behind asking that question, a question that most people would be in agreement on, and what does that have to do with her statement about Ly Tong’s actions now?
2) More to the point, I have a question for you, and I am interested in hearing your answer: do you believe that if a “hero” commits a bad act – hyjacking a plane full of passengers to drop leaflets, committing adultry, etc. – a bad man, and therefore not a “Hero”? Or do you believe we can admire someone for a something good they did despite their bad/negative actions in the past?
My thoughts: JFK did some bad things in his past – he was an adulterer. But most people would put him in the category of Hero for some of the things he did as President. Some of the people we hold up as hero’s – whether they be a national figure, our 8th grade teacher, or a parent as heros, and yet, they, like you, and most people on this blog have their ‘skeletons’.
#50- You are correct! I was 35. I answered a sarcastic question with a sarcastic answer. Quid-pro-quo. Great math skills and attention to detail though! A plus!
JMO- I’m surprised an attorney would actually expect an answer to such a ridiculous question. Having said that, tonight JMO you said in your post to Julie Nguyen on a Needless Battle, that Ly Tong is eating, and or drinking. Well you are dead wrong about that. I have visited him almost daily. He is very weak and ill. He is so thin and frail that the Mayor has assigned Security, and SJPD to check on him hourly. I seriously doubt those types of precautions would be taken if he is indeed, as you claim, sneaking food, and drinking water.
Now if you and Steve want to continue to play this game, I have the same question for the two of you. Since you two are so horrified by Ly Tong’s actions, and the horrific trauma you claim he has caused his victims, and since Ly Tong serving 6 long years in a prison in Thailand for his crime is not good enough to satisfy you, what are you going to do to help his victims? Are you going to fly over there and make donations to them and their families so they can get counseling? Or do you two want to stop this ridiculous attempt to make people who disagree with you look stupid? If you want to keep playing these kinds of games, you’ll have to play them alone. This topic is too serious to be treated with such disrespect. Our city is facing a serious crisis, and innocent people are getting hurt, that is far more important than playing tit for tat because you don’t have anything of substance to add on the topic.
Kathleen,
The question I posed to you in #47 was quite legitimate. There was no sarcasm involved. I even made the disclaimer “This is not a slam against you and not meant to be offensive, nor am I passing judgement on you”. Apparently the best you could come up with is that I was being “sarcastic”, thus totally avoiding answering the question.
Not having a good grammer day…….
#55 – JMO:
The fact that you consider people who opine that hijacking an airplane full of civilians not to be heroes are playing games is rather troubling, Kathleen.
Two comments:
1) Kathleen was not commenting on Ly Tong’s actions back then. In fact, I remember her posting that she did not support his actions in that incident, and she was supportive that he served time for committing that act. What she did was to question the purpose behind asking that question, a question that most people would be in agreement on, and what does that have to do with her statement about Ly Tong’s actions now?
2) More to the point, I have a question for you, and I am interested in hearing your answer: do you believe that if a “hero” commits a bad act – hijacking a plane full of passengers to drop leaflets, committing adultery, etc. – a bad man and therefore not a “Hero”? Or do you believe we can admire someone for a something good they did despite their bad/negative actions in the past?
My thoughts: JFK did some bad things in his past – he was an adulterer. But most people would put him in the category of Hero for some of the things he did as President. Some of the people we hold up as heroes – whether they be a national figure, our 8th grade teacher, or a parent, like you, and most people on this blog have their ‘skeletons’.
#59- If that is true, and I miss judged you and clearly I did, you are owed an apology, so I apologize. I honestly thought you asked a question of this nature knowing I did not help these victims, to that end I will answer your question.
Here is my honest answer to your question,
“Besides the jurisdictional issue, and the fact that I was not asked to represent or assist these victims, and that I do not, nor did I live in the country Mr. Tong did at the time of his hijacking, it is not incubate of me to fly overseas to help victims of a crime I knew nothing about until a month ago, nor is it now. That is what the judicial system is for, but if I had been asked to help, I certainly would have. ”
Mr. VanZandt, I posted earlier but it never showed, I’m trying again, hope it works this time.
Michael Schwerin-I think you said the following didn’t you?
” This is just an example of more paranoia by someone who equates illegal immigrants with lawlessness, identity theft and tax evasion.”
“Illegal alien bashing is great sport for a lot of people but come on, at least make arguments that are supportable and mean something.”
“You are spouting unsubstantiated garbage and need to be taken to task. Considering your incredible liberal leanings on most issues, you are clearly leaning far to the right on the issue of immigration and spout the utter nonsense of the enforcement only immigrant crusaders.”
Everyone one of these things you said was made to or in connection with Kathleen in your posts. They look like personal attacks to me. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck.
Your comments that the articles posted in #45 don’t support her claim, and “Your original posting is not supported by any credible information except for the fact that some illegal aliens have used social security numbers belonging to real people and it has caused a few problems.”
Are you serious? You must be really good at your job defending lawbreakers because I really don’t think you get it when it comes to the rights of victims of your clients. I’ll bet you’d be in court with your $1,000.00 suit on screaming to repaid if one of these criminals stole your daughter’s college fund, her idenity and you’d throw a fit when the defense attorney used one of your famous lines “There is no intention to “steal” anything from you and thus no identity theft.” Your story doesn’t wash, and I just don’t buy it.
Mr. O’connor- you said “I do not consider decrying the placing of innocent lives in mortal danger a game, Kathleen. Apparently you do.” Color me blind but I did not see Kathleen or any one else say anythinglike that. You just came out of the blue with that one, could you explain your flight path, I don’t get it?
I gather from reading your posts that you two are attorneys. You seem like masters of the art of verbal Judo, and have dodged every ligit question, and twisted, or ignored every fact that has come your way. Gives me a new appreciation for why victims or witnesses to crimes don’t want to testify in court. Well guys as you like to say, “I rest my case.”
Carl, um, Kathleen-
JMOC and Mr. Schwerin were pretty spot on when they asked Kathleen to substantiate her posts with some facts beyond the typical emotional hand-wringing that usually make up the substance of her writings.
All of the examples that you posted that supposedly point to personal attacks by Mr. Schwerin are NOT personal attacks. they are his opinion on her opinions. He’s not calling her a piece of garbage, he’s stating that she is spouting unsubstantiated garbage. Big difference. And- he’s right!
Nice try, but I see right through your little attempt at an alias, as can anyone who knows anything about writing. Your liberal spelling, creative use of commas and colorful hyperbole give you away.
#60 Hemingway,
You can’t seriously be equating a convicted hijacker with someone who has had an affair, can you?
#45 Kathleen Flynn:
I have looked at your google articles and wonder, did you?
1. 2006 – Article about identity theft by an undergraduate student/housewife that spouts a few anecdotes and no hard facts other than $500 billion paid into social security that is unidentified. Uses that fact that illegal aliens have used someones social security number and calls it “identity theft”
2. 2006 – basically the same article
3. 2005 – basically the same article talking about the woman who applied to Target and they found out her social security number already worked there.
4. 2007 – An article commenting about Mexico and the future hope for its economy. Nowhere does it support anything you said in your statement.
5. 1993 This article is about a legal immigrant being pursued for tax evasion. Does not support anything you said.
6. 2007 This article is about a New Jersey mayor and his wife trafficking in illegal immigrant women. Lets see, it appears the illegals were the victims in this case.
7. 1993 This article is about the underground economy, not specifically targeted at illegal aliens.
8. 2003 Same as the prior article.
If you look at your original post, which I replied to, you talked about illegal immigrants and identify theft, tax evasion and lawlessness. The point I made about identity theft still stands. They pay in a lot of money into social security that does not get claimed. You have provided no support for your claim of illegal immigrants and tax evasion since the one article talking about tax evasion has to deal with a legal immigrant. And lawlessness, well, yes, they are illegal and that makes them lawless. It still does not make them responsible for all of the ills of the United States as your original post implied.
I did not attack you personally although it seems you take any difference of opinion from yours as a personal attack. I pointed out that your opinion is just that, an opinion, and is not based on hard facts. I did not call you a racist. You used that word. In fact, I did not call you anything except a liberal and that is my opinion based on your prior posts. It is very clear you are not a conservative.
You post strong opinions all over this web site. I can care less whether you do or do not support the Vietnamese. That issue was blown way out of proportion from the beginning.
I stand by my last post. Your original posting is not supported by any credible information except for the fact that some illegal aliens have used social security numbers belonging to real people and it has caused a few problems. You imply there are massive numbers of victims out there and it is wreaking havoc throughout the country. Nothing you submitted in post #45 support that position.
#64 – Steve:
I thought no one would answer my question – thank you for at least acknowledging it. No, I am not comparing the ‘crimes’ (if I can use the word); I was trying to find an example that would illustrate to you what I am asking. I am asking:
1) if someone can be a hero, or be admired by the public for a ‘heroic act’ despite ‘bad’ acts in this person’s past. I am sure if we brainstormed, we could come up with suitable examples we both agreed upon where an individual who had done ‘bad’ deeds in his/her past but was honored/respected (use whatever word you want) for doing something good, or standing for principle.
2) Should a person be condemned for the acts in their past, even if they have been though whatever country’s justice system is in place? In this country, we cannot try a person twice for the same crime. Should we, in society, condemn a person for a crime they have already paid for, served time for, etc?
#65 Noah –
I believe the word that was meant was “incumbent” – see below from Mirriam-Webster’s Online:
Main Entry: 2incumbent
Function: adjective
Date: 1567
1: imposed as a duty : obligatory <incumbent on us to take action>
2: having the status of an incumbent <the team’s incumbent third baseman>; especially : occupying a specified office
3: lying or resting on something else
4: bent over so as to rest on or touch an underlying surface
The definition she meant was #1. I know it is often hard to decipher the meaning of posts vs. the spoken word. Does this help you understand the meaning of her post?
#63 Thank you for your support.
#62 Carl S. – I still cannot take anyone seriously who does not post by their real name. Nevertheless, I do not represent lawbreakers. I do not wear $1000 suits. Actually, in our office, we wear jeans or dockers. We are pretty laid back here. I haven’t worn a suit in years except to weddings or the occasional meeting. I bring people into the US legally and 99% of them have college degrees. My fights are against the US government which does not have any idea how to operate the immigration system.
Who is attacking who here without having a clue as to what you are talking about. My comments were on the opinions stated in Kathleen’s posts. I did not say anything about her personally. She is probably a very nice person and clearly dedicated to her causes. But opinions are subject to attack if they are unsubstantiated by facts.
#63- No, JMO and Schweirn were not “right on”, and they are big enough boys to speak for themselves. They may be a lot of things, but they are not unable to defend their positions. So why don’t you mind your own business, and let these two grown men do their own talking, and if you have something of value to contribute to the TOPIC of conversation, please do.
Both JMO and Schweirn have left several posters questions unanswered, and points unaddressed, or skipped over and smoke screened issues with comments unrelated to the issue. But you are entitled to your anonymous opinion, and yes, they have attacking me personally. Name-calling isn’t the only way to attack someone.
I am not Carl S. Coming from someone who doesn’t even sign a name that is rich. Your writing seems very similar to James Rowen, Seeing Red, and others, so do your colorful smart remarks that don’t quite accuse me, and only me I’ve noticed, of anything tangible enough that you can be held accountable for. Much like Rowen before and now that he has been blogging under different names. Having said that, I’ll move on to a topic worth discussing.
#67-Thank you Christian for catching my back on that. I guess a typo will detract some people from actually looking at the entire post and its content.
#68-Michael Schwerin,
You wrote, “My fights are against the US government which does not have any idea how to operate the immigration system.”
We are on the same team after all! You just speak your truth differently then I do. Welcome to the world of trying to get those in charge to understand what needs to be done to make things actually work the right way? You saw my position incorrectly, and I’m pleased to see this post.
I still cannot agree with the way you claim stealing Social Security Numbers is not stealing, Identity theft, or tax evasion is not a serious issue. Having said that, like you I am frustrated with policies, and current laws that drive people to desperate measures. Many GOOD people who would not ordinarily break the law are put in impossible positions just to survive. I do get angry because too many people abuse illegal immigrants, and even legal ones. If you look in today’s paper, you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. Exactly how many of these Vietnamese immigrants who have difficulty with English were talked into signing something they didn’t understand?
I also am amazed that people who are trying to get into this country legally have to follow such a time consuming, nightmarish process. One of my coworkers is trying to adopt a child from China. My God, what an expensive, long pain in the ass process that is!
#69 Ms. Flynn:
I see we can find some common ground. The immigration system is a major mess on at least 3 different fronts and in reality on many more fronts. Three basic areas are:
1. Family Immigration – Keeping families apart for 10-20 years or more because of an inexcusably low number of visa’s available for family members. If someone does come here legally, some of their close family members (sometimes even their own children or their parents) cannot follow them for long periods because the immigration system is not set up to do this in a humane manner. If a Mexican citizen does get here legally, their children cannot follow them for at least 16 years based on visa availability as of today.
2. Mexican Immigration – Believe it or not, there is actually no legal way for any of our Mexican landscapers, Mexican restaurant workers, or Mexican construction workers to get here legally (other than by marrying a US citizen). There is no system set up for them to do it. There is no guest worker program or temporary worker program which they fit into. That is why they are all undocumented. Any attempts to create such a program in the past (believe it or not George W Bush tried) have been slaughtered in Congress by all of the conservatives. They prefer to build a wall across the border of Mexico/Texas (see today’s Murky News) that to develop a plan that will work to get something done to help the situation.
3. Legal immigration is also a disaster. Last year on 4/1/2007 there were 150,000 applications submitted to immigration for 65,000 H-1B visa’s. This is a 3 year guest worker program for college educated persons (with one renewal of 3 years for a total of 6 years). Most of them are in the high tech field although it is not limited to that field. Congress, rather than raising this 65,000 quota, just let the 85,000 other people stay home. Each of these applications represented a real job. Each person had, at a minimum, a college degree and would have been paid a salary of at least $60,000 per year or more. Each would have paid into social security, paid income tax, bought houses and cars or rented houses, spent money to buy groceries and contributed, as a whole, significantly to the economy. Instead, the government said no. We are not raising the quota and the 85,000 can stay home.
I could fill up this web site with the disasters of our immigration system. The point is, right now, nothing is being done.
I am firmly with you that any immigrant, legal or illegal that commits a serous crime (currently called a crime of moral turpitude) be deported immediately. I have not defended these people and will not do so (see, even lawyers draw the line somewhere). But, bottom line, the immigration system needs fixing. They need someone who will exert some common sense over the whole situation. Unfortunately, that leaves everyone in Washington out. More unfortunately, they are the ones who are supposed to do the job.
#53 said “I answered a sarcastic question with a sarcastic answer. ” Stating you weren’t born yet, when indeed you were 35 years old at the time, isn’t sarcasm, Ms. Flynn—it’s a misrepresentation at best, and a bald faced lie at worst.
Kathleen #56 replied to Mr. Schwerin:“Since you have done such a valiant job of minimizing the effects of said crimes on victims, I’ll be sure to tell the next victim I work with who is going through this type injustice just how trivial and unimportant their victimization really is. ”
How about the 167 men, women, and children forced by Mr. Ly Tong to endure a hijacking and possibly be blown out of the sky by Vietnamese aircraft or rockets?? What would you tell those victims, Ms. Flynn? Or do you even believe they were victims?
#57 wrote:“My understanding of the meaning of a hunger strike is that you do not eat food of any kind, including liquid supplements that contain nutritional value.” I heard on the radio that he admitted to taking liquid supplements. IF TRUE, that’s not a hunger strike. The radio reported witnesses who saw him do so, but they were lacking in precise detail…as usual, when it counts.
This guy is no Ghandi or Chavez. He’s an egomaniac with a death wish. It troubles me that our Mayor is taking time from far more important mayoral tasks to cater to this loose cannon. I’ll keep that in mind come next mayoral election day.
Christian #58—so what are you, Kathleen’s publicist, agent, fiancee, good buddy, or what?
You asked:“I have a question for you, and I am interested in hearing your answer: do you believe that if a “hero” commits a bad act – hyjacking a plane full of passengers to drop leaflets, committing adultry, etc. – a bad man, and therefore not a “Hero”? “
First and foremost, your question to me begs the ultimate question. It ASSUMES Ly Tong was some kind of hero to begin with, and then inquire if he subsequently fails, can he still be a hero?
I have no knowledge that he ever was a hero, as I understand the word. The word “hero” is grossly overused these days.
But Maybe the question should be posed to Mrs Elliot Spitzer, whose fall from grace is like Jim Baker’s, the legnedary Elmer Gantry, etc.
But even conceding that Ly Tong might have done a heroic deed or two before hijacking a civilian airplane full of people (and as I understand it, he was the pilot, a person who passengers should be able to trust with their lives) I stand by my assertion that anyone who hijacks a plane full of non-combatants, FOR ANY REASON AT ALL, must be condemned by civilized people.
Otherwise, Mohammed Atta and his cohorts are heroes by your and Ms. Flynn’s definition; as are all the suicide bombers in Iraq & Afghanistan, and Israel/Gaza.
Does a criminal act erase prior true heroism? No, I don’t think so. The heroic act exists.
But even assuming Ly Tong was ever a true hero, his actions after his heroism cannot be condoned because he was once a hero. Heroes don’t get a special pass if they go out and shoot someone, so why should they get a special pass to hijack a plane to drop leaflets.
And as to his alleged hunger strike re the naming of a cheezy strip of Story Road, my calmest response is that someone ought to petition to make him a conservatee. No mentally competent person is willing to die over naming a few blocks of roadway.
A 72 hour psychiatric hold is definitely in order for Ly Tong.
JMO in #71 makes a very valid point regarding a 72 hour hold (5150 hold). The requirements for a 72 hour hold include being a danger to one’s self. Tong is suicidal and the police under normal circumstances would take him for a 72 hour hold at VMC, as required by law. If Mr. Tong dies as a result of his slow suicide, are not the police and city liable and going to be sued? They would under any similiar situation if they took no action.
The Little Saigon folks have the power to save Tong’s life and end this entire situation. They could simply name an entire shopping center or centers Little Saigon with private funds. If they want to recall Madison that can be handled as a seperate matter. The power is in their hands to peacefully and legally end this situation now, without relying on the government to fix their problems.
69 – Not to belabor the point, but there is a big difference between a “typo” and using the completely wrong word. You always find a way to put the blame back on someone else rather than take the responsibility for it yourself. And then you pull out the “personal attack” card when someone disagrees with you or challenges your lack of facts.
For someone who mediates you really should learn to play better with others. It’s a big playground.
#73 – Noah,
My, my! From Sarcasm to straight, sharp, criticism (how’s that – you like that description better?). Instead of expressing your views, and what you think, you read Kathleen’s post, delve into sarcasm, and, when called on it, go straight to criticism. I haven’t once heard you talk about what you believe – what your views are. You so far have only been interested in reacting to her post. I guess she has a lot of power if she can get you to react like that, instead of you sharing your views. You only offer sarcasm and criticism. Speaking of playing better with others…..
#70- Michael Schwerin, I agree with you 100%! I don’t understand government sometimes. They complain that there are problems they create ridiculous policies, and programs that fail. I think we may luck out this year when we get a new President. At least I hope so.
Thank you for your posting and breaking things down so eloquently. I knew the process was flawed, but I had no idea that things were as horrible as you have just described. You would be an awesome person for Jack to invite to do a column on SJI as this is a very diverse community who is dealing with just these types of issues. It really would help educate the masses.
I volunteer with the County’s Net Work for a Hate Free Community on issues of Hate Crime. I know I’m preaching to choir when I say this to you, but the ignorance and hatred in our community against even legal immigrants is sometimes very frightening. I’ve seen some pretty appalling crimes committed against ALL kinds of ethnic groups religious sects you name it! It is really sad for me to think our world has come to such a place that we can’t respect and learn from other cultures. We are in this thing together and collectively, we need to get on the ball and get things done.
Jack, I really think Michael, if he were willing that is, would be a fantastic person to write a column on the issue of immigration and its challenges. It would help educate many in our community, even me, in what is really going on with immigration and why so many folks who want to enter the US legally cannot.
74 – I don’t know why you have to speak for Kathleen, but that’s another story.
I wasn’t being sarcastic when I asked what she was talking about when she used the word incubate (or a “typo” as you and she seem to think it was).
I realize we can’t win with you guys. No matter what response someone writes (unless it totally agrees with what the two of you think) you will shoot it down for one reason or another.
I guess I was wrong about it being a big playground. It seems pretty small. You kids have fun by yourselves. I’m moving over to where the adults are playing.
Have fun trying to spin and twist my comments. I realize it is sport for you two—but that’s OK. Enjoy.
#76- Noah, you took my comment in the wrong way.
” Thank you Christian for catching my back on that. I guess a typo will detract some people from actually looking at the entire post and its content,”
It was not meant as a put down to you at all. I honestly meant that statement. As a mediator, I know some people do have a keen eye for detail and a typo, or the incorrect use of a word does make it difficult for some people to understand the intent of a comment. That’s all. I had not read your post, before Christian put up his. I would have given you clarity had Christian not. Christian is my fiancé and he has stood by quietly and watched, at my request that he not interfere, while I’ve dealt with some pretty nasty remarks and accusations by some folks on here. I know it would be hard for me to keep quite if someone did that to him.
Having said that Noah, I think the reason everyone is getting so hostile and defensive on here is because there are a few people invading SJI from competing blogs, blogging under multiple names, and starting fights between people. Jack has just posted a statement under the column announcing the changes to SJI that is he going to start banning personal attacks, and anonymous posters who are posting under multiple identities. May be that will help cool things down and allow us to stay on topic, and exchange ideas without being bullied or attacked for our opinions.
JMO-You can say and think what you want. You have twisted everything I’ve said to make it look like I support criminals, lunatics, or whatever you are calling Ly Tong today, no matter how many times I have tried to correct you. You do this to others and me in an effort to belabor your dislike of Ly Tong and anyone who has compassion for him is a target of yours too. That is your right, but it is a dishonest and disrespectful thing to do to others to get your way on this.
As to your comment, “Ms. Flynn—it’s a misrepresentation at best, and a bald faced lie at worst. ” You sir, do not have the right to call me a liar. That is an outright personal judgment and attack on me, and it is not acceptable on any level.
You don’t know my mind, my intention, my heart, or me. I have already explained myself to Steve, apologized for misjudging him, answered his question and that is all I am responsible to do in rectifying any harm I may have caused to him. Funny how he accepted my apology and has moved on, but you are still trying to use this to your advantage. Hum…
61 – Just wondering, which of the following definitions of “incubate” were you using in your post?
incubate |ˈinkyəˌbāt; ˈi ng-|
verb [ trans. ]
(of a bird) sit on (eggs) in order to keep them warm and bring them to hatching.
• (esp. in a laboratory) keep (eggs, cells, bacteria, embryos, etc.) at a suitable temperature so that they develop : the samples were incubated at 80°C for three minutes.
• ( be incubating something) have an infectious disease developing inside one before symptoms appear : the possibility that she was incubating early syphilis.
• [ intrans. ] develop slowly without outward or perceptible signs : unfortunately the BSE bug incubates for around three years.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Latin incubat- ‘lain on,’ from the verb incubare, from in- ‘upon’ + cubare ‘to lie.’
For those who are literal, and not given to given to twisting meaning of things or words, I think Ly Tong would definitely fit the definition in number 4, of a hero don’t you?
From Mirriam/Websters
hero
5 entries found.
heroHeroHero[1]hero-worshiphero worship
Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: ˈhir-(ˌ)ō
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hērōs
Date: 14th century
1 a: a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b: an illustrious warrior c: a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d: one that shows great courage
2 a: the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b: the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3plural usually heros : submarine 2
4: an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol